7 Tools to Navigate Conversations About Race and Identity with Michael Fosberg

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Could you imagiNe a scenario in which your entire identity

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could change in a split second?

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This is exactly what happened to my

guest today, Michael Fosberg, who was

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raised in a working class Armenian

American family led by his biological

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mother and his adoptive father.

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When, in his 30s, his parents

divorced, Michael began a search to

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find his long lost father, a search

that would forever change his life.

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Welcome to episode 181 of this shit

works, a podcast dedicated to all

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things, networking, relationship

building, and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach.

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And today I am joined by Michael speaker,

playwright, and author of the book,

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race, identity, and the difficulties

in forging meaningful conversations.

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When Michael decided to look

for his biological father, his

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mother gave him information on

where she knew he had last lived.

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Michael tracked him down by phone

and to his great relief, his

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father was happy to talk to him.

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But in that first conversation, his father

told him something that would change

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Everything about the way he saw himself.

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His father is black.

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Since then, Michael has utilized his

award winning autobiographical story

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told in the form of a one man play.

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As an entry point for meaningful dialogues

on race and identity, and in his most

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recent book, Nobody Wants to Talk About

It, he has assembled a set of seven

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important tools and takeaways useful in

navigating uncomfortable conversations

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about race and identity, something

that this country desperately needs.

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Michael, welcome to the podcast.

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Michael: Thank you, Julie.

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So good to be with you.

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It's so weird to hear your story.

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Julie: Isn't it?

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You're like, you, you almost like

sort of disassociate from it.

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And then you realize, oh, that's my story.

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Michael: wait, that's me.

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Oh, well, yeah.

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Julie: Let's talk about that day, that day

that you first talked to your father and

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that you learned that you're a half black.

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Like, how did your sense

of self change that day?

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Cause up until that point,

you thought you were white.

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Michael: Yeah, yeah.

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So for listeners who can't see us, uh, I,

I pass, I guess, is the phrase that's used

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in the black community passing as white.

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Um, or am I passing is, I guess,

another question that could be asked.

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I mean, what is passing?

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Passing in the black community?

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Black community is that you have a light

enough skin to pass as a white person.

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But am I, what am I, I

guess is a bigger question.

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Am I biracial?

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What am I, Barack Obama was a biracial

president, but we all call him black.

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So, um, the dead day you asked

about that day, uh, it was crazy.

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I mean, you know, I didn't know who

my father was for all those years.

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Although I grew up with a

very loving father, loving.

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family household.

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Um, they had divorced and that's

what sort of spurred me to, to

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look for my biological father.

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And so I was, filled with some grief

of my parents splitting up , and

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also some wonder and curiosity and

some anxiety about, you know, looking

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for the man who I didn't know and

tracking him down in the first phone

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call, which is kind of a miracle.

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Um, and then in that first phone call,

him proceeding to tell me And, and,

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and in addition to that, if that,

as if that wasn't enough to sort of

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change your whole being and thinking

and all of that, he, he also proceeded

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to tell me about my family history,

dating all the way back to slavery.

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My great great grandfather was a

member of the 54th regiment and the

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colored infantry unit in the civil war.

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My great grandfather was an all

star pitcher in the Negro Leagues.

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He pitched for the St.

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Louis Stars.

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And my grandfather was a genius in the

science and engineering departments

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at Norfolk State University and

HBC is named after my grandfather.

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So, so all of that came

in the first phone call.

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So you, you know, just, just, just

unpacking all of that, obviously was,

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was an enormous task and, uh, and, uh,

subsequently led to many years of therapy.

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Julie: Oh, I would imagine.

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I mean, number one, everybody should go to

therapy, no matter if you have, if you are

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finding out all of these, all these things

about your, your past and your lineage.

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Everybody should go to therapy anyways.

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Michael: Agreed.

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Julie: Um, that sort of explains

to me why you had so much to pour

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into this one man show that you did.

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I also am a person who was reconnected

to a biological father when I was adult,,

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and I think there are certain times

in our life where we just are, I don't

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know, we're just wondering who we are

and where we came from and trying to

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make sense of why we do the things we do.

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Is it nature or nurture?

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But I can imagine that was almost

like information overload for you.

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There

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Michael: Yes.

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Yes.

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Well, I think you just, you

just nailed it there, though.

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I think everybody goes on this journey.

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Obviously, you and I, having

searched for a biological parent,

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it's a, it's a, it's a much bigger,

shall we say, surprise or whatever.

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But everyone's on a journey

of trying to discover who

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they are, how they fit in, um,

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I mean, these are all things

that we're trying to figure out

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like where, where, who are we?

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That's the journey of identity.

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And I talk about this a lot in

the work that I do is that Um, our

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journey of identity is constantly

evolving, constantly changing.

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It's not like you get to a place

in your life and you go, that's it.

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I know who I am.

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I mean, things happen in your life.

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Like I don't, you know, simple things,

whether it's you get married and

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now you see yourself as a husband

or a wife or you have kids and

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suddenly you see yourself as a parent

or your kids have kids and suddenly

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you see yourself as a grandparent.

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These are more simplistic things,

but these are things that change in

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the way that we see our identities.

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And so.

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To have such a big, jump in my identity

and certainly I would imagine for you

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to, to, to discover your biological

father put into place for you a lot of

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questions that you had asked yourself.

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Julie: you know, it's interesting.

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My story is a little bit

different than you are.

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I always knew who my biological

father was and I knew his family.

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I just didn't have a

relationship with him.

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He was a strange, um, and he was a strange

for a lot of different reasons, but make

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a long story short, when he got sober,

is when tried to reconnect with me.

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And it's funny because when you don't

know who your biological father is or

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you don't spend time with them, there

are pieces of your personality where

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you wonder where things came from.

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And then almost, it's like, it's almost

like you're putting puzzle pieces

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together when you meet that other person.

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Now you've got it on a

whole different level.

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I didn't find out my father was a

different race than I thought I was.

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But I think it's also You know, you lived

your first 30 something years of your

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life, identifying as a certain race,

and then the next part of your life,

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I, you know, having that knowledge that

you are a different, you are a different

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race than you thought you were, which

I'm assuming is how, what prepared you

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to write the book that you just wrote,

the nobody wants to talk about it.

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Michael: Yes.

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Julie: I, and I think that we're,

we as a country of immigrants, we're

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never not going to talk about race.

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We are all different races.

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So why do you think it's so difficult

for us to talk about it knowing that

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we live in a country of immigrants?

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Michael: Wow, you, you've kind of

hit the nail on the head, so as

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they, as the cliche goes, I mean.

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Um, you know, right now we live in

an era, not just in our country, but

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in the world in which immigration

and immigrants are looked down upon.

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And so, whether ever it might be, whether

it's their religion, the color of their

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skin, what they believe, uh, how they

look, all of these different things play

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into how people judge, uh, immigrants.

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The question of race and having

conversation about race is a, is, is

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fraught., on multiple levels, for many

reasons, uh, look, we, when, when we're

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asked to have a conversation about

race, in mixed company, it can be very

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awkward and uncomfortable, primarily

because as, as white people, and I'm

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both, so it's complicated, but, but,

but also because as white people.

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We come to the table with

apprehensions, with cautions.

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We're cautious about talking about

Christ because we don't want to

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say anything that might sound

racist or offensive or whatever.

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Also, we probably haven't had that

conversation in our immediate families

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while we were growing up because it wasn't

necessary to have that conversation.

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So I think for me, especially as a

white man, well white, I'm biracial

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now, as growing up as a white person.

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Um, like race wasn't something that we had

a lot of conversation about in my family.

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And so now I was interjecting

that conversation into my family.

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So there was a little bit of hesitation in

how we go about having that conversation.

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On the other side of the issue,

we have people of color who, are

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constantly having the conversation

about race, but are ready to pounce

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on anyone or anybody that sound says

something that sounds remotely racist.

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And so we're polarized and we

don't have the conversation.

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And what I'm suggesting to all of

us is Yes, it's going to be messy,

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but we need to have that dialogue.

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We need to get comfortable

being uncomfortable.

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Julie: In your, in your book, you

say that there are seven tools to

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start having these conversations.

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Can we break those down

a little bit so that,

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Michael: yes, absolutely.

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I just said one right there.

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It's get comfortable being uncomfortable.

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That is, uh, in the, in the

book, it's tool number five.

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But the first tool is,

um, is tell your story.

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Um, and this is so beautiful

because you just did that with me.

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You just told me a little bit about

your story and we found a commonality.

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We have more in common

than we have difference.

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So the first tool is tell your story.

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That's where we find our commonalities.

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The second tool is don't

judge the differences.

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Flip the script.

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Instead of allowing the differences to

create a wall between us, find a mutual

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interest and then embrace the differences.

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After all, if we were all

the same, We'd be bored.

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We'd be bored.

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We all love that.

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Look, I think you have

fantastic glasses on listeners.

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Trust me.

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She's got fantastic glasses.

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But you went out and found those

glasses because you love the way they

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looked and the uniqueness of them so

that you could be your unique self.

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The same with me.

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I like unique glasses.

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I want to be my unique self.

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We each have these individual aspects

about us that want to be unique, and

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yet we also want to fit in as a whole.

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So what I'm suggesting is Uh, it's a, it's

a, it's a theory called intergroup contact

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theory, and that's the proven theory

that by sharing our personal stories

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across majority and minority populations,

we can break down the prejudices that

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exist between us by discovering we have

more in common than we have different.

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That's a fact.

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Julie: mhm,

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Michael: So those are the first two tools.

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The second tool is that we need to

recognize that there isn't one way.

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To have a conversation

about race and identity.

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I, if there was one way to

do it, we'd all be doing it.

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That would make it a lot easier, right?

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But, but we all come to the table with

a different experience of race and

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identity, and that's why it's so messy.

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There isn't just one way to do it.

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Um, number four, and this is so important

in today's society, we can disagree

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so long as we're not disagreeable.

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Julie: Mm hmm.

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Michael: Once we are disagreeable,

the conversation stops.

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Let's just agree that we

don't agree on this particular

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issue, or whatever it might be.

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But when you become disagreeable, you

stop the conversation from moving forward.

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And so, um, that's something.

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Take responsibilities.

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Freedom of speech

carries responsibilities.

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We need to accept the

responsibilities of that.

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Number five, as I mentioned, is get

comfortable being uncomfortable.

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Number six is.

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Understand there are realities

outside of our own experiences.

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Just because we haven't, um, maybe we

haven't experienced racism or sexism

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or homophobia or age discrimination or

disability indifference doesn't mean that

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those are not realities for other people.

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And so we need to accept that.

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And number seven is, um, and

this is a very, uh, Difficult

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and also very deep thing.

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It's, um, we need to practice forgiveness.

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Um, it is, uh, often been described

as the hardest work you will ever

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do, but also the most rewarding.

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Julie: I don't think

I am good at that one.

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And any part of my life, I gotta tell

ya, Michael, I literally, I'm, everybody

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who listens to this knows I'm like a

big fan of true crime and whatever.

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And even this morning, I, oh, I, The news

program, Good Morning America, was running

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a little thing, on the Murdaugh, case.

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And this particular one was

the fraud and money laundering

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Michael: Yes.

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Yes.

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Julie: And there were people in, in,

that he had stolen millions of dollars

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from, In these lawsuits that they had

gotten insurance money and then he

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had stolen the insurance money and one

woman Said, you know, I forgive you

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and I was like that those words are

not the words that would come out of

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my mouth And I think it is a huge flaw.

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It is a character flaw of mine, but I

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Michael: Well,

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Julie: is tough for me

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Michael: well, let me, let me just

say, just because you forgive someone

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doesn't mean you condone their behavior.

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Julie: Yeah

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Michael: can forgive someone and not

condone their behavior and still think

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what they did was evil or wrong or

whatever you want to describe it as.

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But I will say this, if you continue

to hold on to that resentment, that

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resentment will always be there.

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It will weigh on you.

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And by allowing yourself to let

that go, you are freeing yourself.

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And so I'm not suggesting that I'm

perfect at this at all, but I'm

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suggesting that this is something

that we could all take a look to as a

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means to help, uh, lessen some of the

anger that's in our atmosphere today.

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Julie: Yeah.

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I mean it seems like those seven

steps are, or tools not steps because

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you don't have to do them in that

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Michael: No, you don't.

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No.

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Julie: There are two of us.

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I mean, and I think any of them

alone would be helpful, but

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obviously together they change, um,

relationships and conversations.

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You know, as we sit here today having

this conversation, we're in the middle

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of a ceasefire in, in the Gaza Strip for

the, transfer of hostages and prisoners.

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And I just wonder, like,

sometimes you look and...

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And have we entered a time in which

there's just too much hatred for things

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to get better or to be different?

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Like, I'd love to know

your thoughts on that.

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Michael: Well, I'm glad you asked that.

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Um, I would say, I'm laughing

when I'm saying this.

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I would say I have a little bit more of a

pessimistic view about it, but that being

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said, that being said, I mean, there is a

lot of, uh, strife, let's call it whatever

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war strife, whatever in the world today.

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And I, I can only speak, um, I guess

directly about what's happening

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in my own sphere, in my own.

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World, meaning in the United States.

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I don't live in Israel.

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I don't live in Ukraine.

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I live here and I deal with people here

and I'm distraught as, as perhaps you

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are at what is happening in our country.

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Um, our politics are poisoned.

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Our, our, our, our people are

poisoned and angry with one another.

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And all I can say is that if we don't

make some concerted efforts to either use

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these tools or find ways in which we can

speak with one another in a civil manner

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and not allow our anger to overtake us.

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We're, we're doomed.

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We've got to do this.

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This is the only way.

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There's no magic pill that's

going to get us out of this.

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There's no, you know, can't wave a wand

and say, okay, we're, it's all okay.

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We are the ones who have to do this.

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And that is why I am so committed to doing

this work, traveling around the country,

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speaking with, you know, Corporations and

government agencies and military bases

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and high schools and colleges and trying

to get them to understand that we may

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have differences in ideology, differences

in skin color, differences in gender,

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differences in the way that we see the

world, but we actually have more in common

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than we have different, and we need to

find those commonalities and embrace them.

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Julie: Yeah.

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I'd love to know your thoughts.

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I did a podcast a few months ago

on how corporate DEI statements are

307

: 00:17:46

actually a turnoff to most candidates

308

: 00:17:48

Michael: Yes.

309

: 00:17:49

Julie: because there's

no substance behind it.

310

: 00:17:51

There's no reason behind it.

311

: 00:17:53

It's more like, Oh, we have

to have a DEI statement.

312

: 00:17:56

So we'll craft a DEI statement.

313

: 00:17:58

Um, I'd love to know how you work

with companies, organizations, to

314

: 00:18:05

have it be something that is part of

the fabric of their company and not

315

: 00:18:10

something that they think that they

have to do and not really dig deep into

316

: 00:18:15

it to make it part of their culture.

317

: 00:18:18

Michael: Uh, boy, how do I answer this?

318

: 00:18:21

First of all, I guess I would

say there is currently right

319

: 00:18:25

now a lot of pushback on that.

320

: 00:18:26

As you mentioned, there's a

lot of pushback on DE& I and

321

: 00:18:28

DE& I statements in general.

322

: 00:18:30

And although I am, uh, I guess what I

do is sort of branded in that space,

323

: 00:18:37

my message is so much bigger than that.

324

: 00:18:40

And so I've been trying to utilize,

different, I don't know, words

325

: 00:18:44

or phrasing to sort of get at

what it is that I'm trying to...

326

: 00:18:48

My message, what...

327

: 00:18:50

synthesize what my message is.

328

: 00:18:52

And my message is about authenticity,

belonging, and community.

329

: 00:18:57

If I were to think about that

to me, it is the essence of what

330

: 00:19:01

I'm trying to get at and every

company, every community needs that

331

: 00:19:07

Julie: hmm.

332

: 00:19:07

Mm hmm.

333

: 00:19:08

Michael: So, I also realized

that, a lot of people haven't

334

: 00:19:13

reframed what things are.

335

: 00:19:14

And so they're still calling it

this., And I'm speaking of D.

336

: 00:19:18

E.

337

: 00:19:18

and I in particular diversity,

equity, inclusion and belonging.

338

: 00:19:22

Sometimes it's called that.

339

: 00:19:24

It's a bigger picture or whatever.

340

: 00:19:25

I guess I would say, I think

it's important for us to

341

: 00:19:28

remember that we need to be more.

342

: 00:19:35

I'm just going to use the I

word, inclusive, because it

343

: 00:19:39

brings us, greater outcomes.

344

: 00:19:42

Every study, every test, every poll,

everything that you look at shows that

345

: 00:19:50

the wider variety of people that you bring

in and embrace, The greater the outcomes,

346

: 00:19:58

whether it's in an educational institution

or it's in a business, the more that you

347

: 00:20:03

can bring a wide variety of people into

the fold, I guess is the way to put it,

348

: 00:20:09

the greater the outcomes you will have.

349

: 00:20:11

You're not going to leave, and you

know, to leave it, um, just to say

350

: 00:20:15

the crassness of it, you're not going

to leave any money on the table.

351

: 00:20:18

You're going to be able to bring

in a lot of different people who

352

: 00:20:21

are going to embrace your message,

your service, your product.

353

: 00:20:25

Julie: Yeah.

354

: 00:20:26

And I think a lot of, on a very human

level, I think a lot of our fear of

355

: 00:20:32

other people, I don't know another

better, better word for that, fear

356

: 00:20:36

of other people is just not knowing

where they come from, not having an

357

: 00:20:42

understanding of their culture, of how

things are different, of how things that

358

: 00:20:49

are normal in the way I grew up are not

normal in the way other people grow up.

359

: 00:20:54

And there's.

360

: 00:20:55

Like you said, there's no one

right way to have a conversation.

361

: 00:20:58

Well, there's, there's things that are

different that are innately different.

362

: 00:21:03

And the reason we don't understand

them is because we haven't

363

: 00:21:06

taken the time to discover them.

364

: 00:21:08

Michael: Absolutely.

365

: 00:21:09

Tool.

366

: 00:21:09

Tool number one.

367

: 00:21:10

Tell your story.

368

: 00:21:11

Tell your story.

369

: 00:21:12

Again, there are, you're going to find,

you're going to discover a rich array

370

: 00:21:17

of commonalities, but you're also going

to hear some differences and you're

371

: 00:21:21

going to go, Oh, that's interesting.

372

: 00:21:22

I want to know more about that.

373

: 00:21:24

You know, I once heard a CEO of

a huge multinational corporation.

374

: 00:21:30

Um, I used to, uh, They

used to have amazing.

375

: 00:21:34

They used to have a diversity conference

every year, and they would invite about

376

: 00:21:37

1000 of their employees from sites

all across the world, and they would

377

: 00:21:40

gather together for three days, and

they would have an intensive diversity

378

: 00:21:44

training experience, and the CEO would

open up the conference and speak,

379

: 00:21:49

and he would talk about, you know,

the state of affairs that are today.

380

: 00:21:51

At our corporation and

talk all about this stuff.

381

: 00:21:54

And then he would open up the room to

accept questions from people in the room.

382

: 00:21:57

So people got to ask their CEO a question,

which, you know, who gets to do that?

383

: 00:22:02

Rarely do that.

384

: 00:22:04

So, but he said, before you ask your

question, I have a couple of, uh,

385

: 00:22:07

of things I need to know from you.

386

: 00:22:09

First, I want you to tell me

the site that you work at.

387

: 00:22:12

And second, I want you

to tell me two hobbies.

388

: 00:22:18

Tell me two of your hobbies.

389

: 00:22:20

And I thought that was a brilliant way to

open the door, like, because your hobbies

390

: 00:22:26

are things that we are passionate about.

391

: 00:22:28

And so you're describing something

that you are very passionate about that

392

: 00:22:31

really means something dear to you.

393

: 00:22:33

And not only is that interesting, but then

you may also have a commonality with that.

394

: 00:22:37

So the CEO didn't always have a similar

hobby as people did, but once in a

395

: 00:22:42

while they overlapped and certainly

things like I think one person

396

: 00:22:46

said once, that he was a beekeeper

and I was like, wow, that is fast.

397

: 00:22:51

Like, like I want to know,

but you're a beekeeper.

398

: 00:22:54

Julie: Mm

399

: 00:22:54

Michael: I want to know all about that.

400

: 00:22:55

That's like a fascinating hobby, you know?

401

: 00:22:57

And so, so it's a way I thought

it was a brilliant way to open

402

: 00:23:01

the door for people to connect.

403

: 00:23:04

Julie: It's so interesting that you

say that because,, last week I gave a

404

: 00:23:09

keynote, a virtual keynote in Africa to

a woman's group in Africa and I had been

405

: 00:23:16

connected by a mutual connection who said,

I, you know, I'd like virtually to speak

406

: 00:23:20

to this group in Africa on networking.

407

: 00:23:22

She's amazing.

408

: 00:23:22

You know, blah, blah, blah.

409

: 00:23:24

And they reached out to me

and asked me if I would do it.

410

: 00:23:26

And I almost turned it down because.

411

: 00:23:30

I was so self conscious about being A

white woman growing up in the United

412

: 00:23:39

States with all of the privilege that that

has being white in the United States and

413

: 00:23:44

lecturing to a hundred,, African women.

414

: 00:23:48

And I reached, when they reached

out to me, I wrote back and I

415

: 00:23:52

said, I'd be delighted to however.

416

: 00:23:55

I'm not sure that I'm the right person

for you because all of my experiences

417

: 00:24:01

come from this narrow experience.

418

: 00:24:03

Yes, I worked in male dominated

industry, but I have all of the white

419

: 00:24:06

privilege and I work in America.

420

: 00:24:08

So, and they wrote back and they

were like, yeah, that's no big deal.

421

: 00:24:12

And I was, I was making

it more than it was.

422

: 00:24:16

Um, and At the end of my presentation,

you know, I, similar to what you

423

: 00:24:23

do, I, what that CEO did, I have

a commonality exercise where we

424

: 00:24:28

find what we have in common and.

425

: 00:24:31

I mentioned already that

I'm very into true crime.

426

: 00:24:33

Most of the women there were into true

crime and wanted to talk to me about that.

427

: 00:24:36

And then I mentioned I'm a

dog mom and they had dogs.

428

: 00:24:39

And it was just like, I was only looking

at the fact that I was white and they

429

: 00:24:44

were black, and I wasn't looking at all

of the things we had in common, which

430

: 00:24:48

is your number one, tell your story

and find the commonality, but I almost

431

: 00:24:53

turned down that engagement because I was

so, uh, I was uncomfortable and afraid.

432

: 00:25:00

Michael: Yeah, well, number two

is don't judge the differences.

433

: 00:25:02

You were self judging your difference

between this group of women and yet,

434

: 00:25:06

and yet you discovered you had so much

more in common than you had different.

435

: 00:25:11

That's just

436

: 00:25:12

Julie: Yeah, I mean, and

they asked me to come back.

437

: 00:25:14

They were like, can you

come in person next time?

438

: 00:25:16

I was like, yes, I will.

439

: 00:25:18

I mean, I've been to South Africa.

440

: 00:25:19

I love the African continent.

441

: 00:25:21

Um, so I was like, yeah, and

I, I just, I can't believe I

442

: 00:25:25

almost let it hold me back.

443

: 00:25:26

And then if, if someone like me who is

very comfortable in my expertise and

444

: 00:25:30

very comfortable being an orator, almost

gave up that opportunity because of fear.

445

: 00:25:36

I can't imagine how prevalent it is in

people who are, you know, just starting to

446

: 00:25:41

test the boundaries of making connections,

which is something I'm an expert at.

447

: 00:25:46

So.

448

: 00:25:47

Michael: Yeah, indeed.

449

: 00:25:48

Indeed.

450

: 00:25:49

I would agree.

451

: 00:25:50

It's, uh, it gets in our way.

452

: 00:25:52

Julie: Yeah.

453

: 00:25:53

How do you, you're one man.

454

: 00:25:55

story, your autobiographical one man play.

455

: 00:25:58

I'm sure some people have come up to

you afterwards with their own stories of

456

: 00:26:04

finding their identity or maybe something

similar to you, um, not understanding

457

: 00:26:10

their, their lineage or their past.

458

: 00:26:12

Do any stories do you, that you

remember that stick out to you?

459

: 00:26:15

Michael: Oh my gosh, Julie, so

many, uh, I mean, seriously, so many

460

: 00:26:19

people come up to me afterwards.

461

: 00:26:20

Well, it is the theory that I use

again, and I didn't discover this

462

: 00:26:23

theory until I was well into the

journey of performing the play.

463

: 00:26:27

I read about it somewhere, I don't

know, in an article or something,

464

: 00:26:30

and I was like, Oh my gosh,

that's exactly what I'm doing.

465

: 00:26:32

I'm talking about...

466

: 00:26:32

Intergroup contact theory.

467

: 00:26:34

So I'm telling my story.

468

: 00:26:35

I'm up there.

469

: 00:26:36

Of course, I'm telling it perhaps in

a different way than most people would

470

: 00:26:39

tell it in the form of a one man play

where I play over a dozen characters

471

: 00:26:43

over the course of 45 minutes.

472

: 00:26:44

But everybody has a story, their own

personal story, and people come up

473

: 00:26:48

to me afterwards and tell me theirs.

474

: 00:26:49

And it could be, I mean, I've had

people who have had similar stories.

475

: 00:26:53

One, I was, I was at a business college

outside of Philadelphia and I was

476

: 00:26:57

backstage getting ready to do this show.

477

: 00:27:00

Um, and the audience, it was, you know,

huge theater and the place was packed.

478

: 00:27:04

You could hear all the rumbling

out in the audience and, you know,

479

: 00:27:07

you're backstage by yourself.

480

: 00:27:08

I don't know about you, but it's such a

weird feeling to be by yourself, right?

481

: 00:27:12

It's so lonely back there and,

and I get a little nervous.

482

: 00:27:16

I get nervous when I do this show and.

483

: 00:27:17

And suddenly I'm sort of, you know,

breathing and sort of just getting into my

484

: 00:27:21

routine, getting ready to go out on stage.

485

: 00:27:23

And this guy comes charging

backstage and he says, hi, my name

486

: 00:27:27

is, I don't remember his name.

487

: 00:27:29

My name is Jim.

488

: 00:27:30

And I got to tell you, I

just met my biological father

489

: 00:27:33

this week and he's black.

490

: 00:27:34

And I didn't know it.

491

: 00:27:35

And there's a white guy.

492

: 00:27:36

It's like telling me this story.

493

: 00:27:37

He goes, I couldn't wait

to come and hear this.

494

: 00:27:39

And I was like, Oh, that's so nice of you.

495

: 00:27:41

You could have waited until after

the show, but that is really nice.

496

: 00:27:44

Felt so, so never to come

backstage before I started.

497

: 00:27:48

So, uh, you know, and then we

talked after I did the show and

498

: 00:27:51

he told me more about his story.

499

: 00:27:53

It was incredible.

500

: 00:27:54

I've had, um, trans individuals

come up to me afterwards.

501

: 00:27:58

In tears, just talking about being

able to share their stories in

502

: 00:28:04

the way that I've shared mine,

and it's just been so gratifying.

503

: 00:28:09

I mean, again, we all go on this journey

of identity, trying to figure out where

504

: 00:28:14

we fit in and how we fit in and trans

people are no different than others.

505

: 00:28:18

They're going through a journey

in terms of trying to figure

506

: 00:28:21

out who they are, what they are.

507

: 00:28:23

And so I've had just so many people.

508

: 00:28:26

I'll tell you one.

509

: 00:28:28

One more specific story.

510

: 00:28:31

And this was at the very beginning

of the journey I was doing the show.

511

: 00:28:35

In theaters at the time.

512

: 00:28:37

I still had not wrapped my head around.

513

: 00:28:39

I wasn't even familiar with the D.

514

: 00:28:41

E.

515

: 00:28:41

and I space.

516

: 00:28:43

I was an actor.

517

: 00:28:44

I had written a play.

518

: 00:28:45

I was performing it in a theater.

519

: 00:28:47

I was in the I was at the Kansas

City Repertory Theater, a big

520

: 00:28:50

regional theater in Kansas City.

521

: 00:28:52

It was a big honor to be there.

522

: 00:28:53

800 seat theater.

523

: 00:28:56

I opened their season in 2002.

524

: 00:28:59

It was a huge moment for me

as an actor, as a writer.

525

: 00:29:02

It And, um, one night after the show,

the stage manager came backstage

526

: 00:29:08

and said, you know, there's a couple

waiting for you in the green room.

527

: 00:29:11

They, they want to meet you.

528

: 00:29:12

Would that be okay?

529

: 00:29:13

And I said, well, do

you know who they are?

530

: 00:29:14

And she goes, no, I don't.

531

: 00:29:15

And I'm like, Okay.

532

: 00:29:16

I don't know anybody in Kansas

City, so I wasn't expecting anybody.

533

: 00:29:19

So I go into the green room,

and there's this lovely couple.

534

: 00:29:22

They're all dressed, you

know, in nice clothing for an

535

: 00:29:25

evening out at the theater.

536

: 00:29:27

Um, husband and wife.

537

: 00:29:29

, and the wife comes up to me and says,

you know, we just really wanted to

538

: 00:29:32

thank you so deeply for you sharing

your story, for you performing it.

539

: 00:29:36

It just really moved us so much.

540

: 00:29:39

I can't even put it into words.

541

: 00:29:41

And my husband wanted to talk to you.

542

: 00:29:44

And so I turned to look at him and there

are tears in his eyes and now streaming

543

: 00:29:50

down his face and I'm getting choked

up just telling the story and he sort

544

: 00:29:57

of begins to speak to me, but he can't

get the words out instead of words

545

: 00:30:01

coming out, tears are coming out and

I'm looking at him and I know who he is.

546

: 00:30:08

He is a biracial man and he

just heard his story on stage.

547

: 00:30:12

It's the first time he's ever heard his

story and he can't say he he's, he's

548

: 00:30:19

so filled with, with love and feeling.

549

: 00:30:23

He can't even express it.

550

: 00:30:24

And his wife sort of butts in because she

realizes this is an uncomfortable moment.

551

: 00:30:27

She goes, he's just so

deeply moved by her story.

552

: 00:30:30

He just really wanted to tell you.

553

: 00:30:32

And I just turned back to him.

554

: 00:30:33

He still could not tell me.

555

: 00:30:35

And I just, Embraced him in a big hug

and I said, thank you so much for being

556

: 00:30:40

here and for coming backstage and,

and meeting me and he then choked out.

557

: 00:30:45

Thank you so much for telling your story.

558

: 00:30:47

It is so deeply close to mine.

559

: 00:30:50

Julie: Right.

560

: 00:30:52

And I think that is, the power on that

is a lot of us, we self, um, censor.

561

: 00:31:03

Because we're not sure that anybody cares.

562

: 00:31:06

You know, why would anybody care?

563

: 00:31:08

And you, what I've learned in telling

stories now on stages for the past eight

564

: 00:31:13

years is, You don't know how many people

you're going to affect and help until

565

: 00:31:21

you start talking and telling your story.

566

: 00:31:24

And then you will be amazed by

the number of people who connect

567

: 00:31:29

with you or relate to you or are

emboldened or because of you.

568

: 00:31:36

So telling your story is the,

like you said, it's number one.

569

: 00:31:41

Michael: Yes, number one, it's

just, we, our whole society,

570

: 00:31:48

our whole, the storytelling was

the first form of communication.

571

: 00:31:53

From cave person days, they told stories

and pictures on walls, and we do that

572

: 00:32:00

today in so many different ways, whether

it's in a book or a movie or a play

573

: 00:32:04

or a speech or, uh, just connecting

with, another person, uh, face to face.

574

: 00:32:11

Julie: Yeah.

575

: 00:32:12

Michael, thank you so much for being

here and having this conversation for

576

: 00:32:16

sharing your story, which I'm sure

was hard to do while you were still

577

: 00:32:23

going through it and processing it.

578

: 00:32:25

You know, one of the things they say

about being professional speakers,

579

: 00:32:27

you can't tell the story until

you've gone through it and you,

580

: 00:32:31

and you're, and you're over it.

581

: 00:32:32

But what you have gone through is not

something you're ever going to be over.

582

: 00:32:34

It's still always going to be

a part of your identity, who

583

: 00:32:37

you were and who you are now.

584

: 00:32:39

Um, I think it's very brave.

585

: 00:32:41

Michael: Thank you so much.

586

: 00:32:42

It's just a delight to be with

you and to um, have this back and

587

: 00:32:47

forth and to discover a little bit

about you and to find commonality.

588

: 00:32:52

It's, it's just delightful.

589

: 00:32:55

Julie: Well, thank you for being here.

590

: 00:32:56

Michael: Thanks.

591

: 00:33:01

I recorded this conversation.

592

: 00:33:03

About an hour after I recorded

my conversation with henna prior.

593

: 00:33:09

And it could not have been better

times because Like Michael said.

594

: 00:33:13

In order to have these

conversations, we need to get

595

: 00:33:16

comfortable being uncomfortable.

596

: 00:33:20

So we might be awkward.

597

: 00:33:22

As we begin to navigate these

conversations, as we begin to learn,

598

: 00:33:27

to share our stories and become curious

and ask about the stories of others.

599

: 00:33:33

And remember there's no one

way to have a conversation.

600

: 00:33:37

The most important thing

is that we are having the

601

: 00:33:40

conversation in the first place.

602

: 00:33:43

I hope the seven tips that Michael shared

will help ease you into discovering

603

: 00:33:47

new ways to connect with people.

604

: 00:33:50

Of all different backgrounds.

605

: 00:33:53

Now.

606

: 00:33:54

Onto the drink of the week,

which is the black and white

607

: 00:33:58

cocktail from the food network.

608

: 00:34:00

Here's what you're going to need.

609

: 00:34:02

Two ounces of heavy cream.

610

: 00:34:03

One ounce of vanilla flavored vodka, one

and a half ounces of chocolate, a core

611

: 00:34:07

and a chocolate swizzle stick for garnish,

which you're going to do is you're going

612

: 00:34:10

to fill a cocktail shaker with ice.

613

: 00:34:13

Add the cream and vodka cover and

shake vigorously shake, shake, shake.

614

: 00:34:16

About 30 seconds.

615

: 00:34:18

Straight into a chilled cocktail glass

and then slowly pour the chocolate

616

: 00:34:22

liquor into the center of the drink to

make a layered black and white cocktail.

617

: 00:34:27

Then you would lay that chocolate

swizzle stick across the top

618

: 00:34:30

of the glass and then serve it.

619

: 00:34:32

But before you drink it, Sir,

the layers together with this.

620

: 00:34:36

Swizzle stick.

621

: 00:34:37

Otherwise it's, shouldn't be like.

622

: 00:34:39

Layers of like, Alcohol

and it's not good days.

623

: 00:34:43

Good.

624

: 00:34:44

All right friends.

625

: 00:34:45

That's it.

626

: 00:34:46

That was very eloquently.

627

: 00:34:47

Put awkward.

628

: 00:34:48

All right, friends.

629

: 00:34:48

That's all for this week.

630

: 00:34:49

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

631

: 00:34:51

and subscribe to the podcast.

632

: 00:34:53

Please remember to share this podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

633

: 00:34:57

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you find my book.

634

: 00:34:59

This shit works on Amazon

and Barnes and noble.

635

: 00:35:01

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

636

: 00:35:03

Just let me know where you found me

when you reach out I'm Julie Brown

637

: 00:35:07

underscore BD on the Instagram, or you

can just pop on over to my website,

638

: 00:35:11

Julie Brown, bd.com until next week.

639

: 00:35:13

Cheers.