Episode 179

How to Embrace the Embarassing, Celebrate the Cringe and Be Good Awkward with Henna Pryor

Published on: 10th January, 2024

Henna Pryor has spent years observing and experiencing awkwardness with a deep curiosity and what she learned is that most of the superstars we respect in the business world have one major thing in common that doesn’t get nearly enough airtime - that the key to thriving is learning to lean into the embarrassing and celebrating the cringe.  

But how does one do that?


Listen in as I talk with Henna Pryor author of the book Good Awkward: How to Embrace the Embarrassing and Celebrate the Cringe to Become The Bravest You



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Transcript
Julie:

Sometimes, I look at my nieces and nephews, or you know, even my friends

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kids, and I'm just so jealous of them.

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Whether it be because they are

laughing, crying, falling, dancing,

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joking, imagining, singing, they

do it as if no one is watching.

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And they actually do it no

matter what others think of them.

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Research shows that early

adolescence, you know, around

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the age of 8, is when we start to

notice and internalize social norms.

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Then we become self-conscious.

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It's when we begin to remember how

things make us feel, and then we avoid

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things that make us feel awkward.

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Welcome to episode 1 79 Of The Shit

Works, a podcast dedicated to all

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things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach, and today

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I am joined by Hannah Pryor, a two-Time

TEDx speaker and author of the new book.

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Good awkward.

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How to embrace the embarrassing

and celebrate the cringe

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to become the bravest you.

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You know, you'd think the older we get,

the more experienced we are, that our need

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to fit into social norms would decrease.

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But my guest today says that

studies show the exact opposite.

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That the more experienced and confident

we are, the more we try to fit into

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social norms, causing our ability to take

risks, both big and small, to collapse.

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Hanna has spent years observing

and experiencing awkwardness with a

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deep curiosity and what she learned

is that most of the superstars we

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respect in the business world have

one major thing in common that

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doesn't get nearly enough air time.

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That the key to thriving is learning

to lean into the embarrassing

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and celebrate the cringe.

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Well, I can't wait to

learn how to do that.

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So Hanna, welcome to the podcast.

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Henna: Thank you for having me.

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I can't wait to teach you how to do that.

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Julie: You know, I think it

would be great if we started

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off by, defining what awkward

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Henna: Yeah, I think that's

a great way to start.

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So awkwardness has many definitions.

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If you pick up, you know, any of

the 10 major dictionaries, you're

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going to get at least three to

four definitions per dictionary.

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But in the context of our conversation

today, when we are talking about

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awkwardness, we're talking about

the emotion of awkwardness.

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And the definition I use is Awkwardness

is an emotion we feel when the person

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that we believe ourselves to be, our

true self, is momentarily at odds

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with the person who is on display.

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So in other words, who we are

for a moment feels at odds.

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There's a gap with who they see.

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And when that happens, we feel

an emotion called awkwardness.

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Julie: Okay., I'm gonna assume, maybe,

that a lot of our behaviors, especially

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the ones around fitting in with other

people, they come from our caveman brain.

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When we were cavemen, Everything was

about being accepted into the group,

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being accepted in, amongst your people.

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And if you weren't, if you were

ostracized and put outside of that

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group, I mean, it's essentially

akin to, to death at that point.

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You needed a group of people to,

to embrace you and have you fit in.

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And I'm assuming that is...

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Creating the pathway for

a lot of the ways we feel

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Henna: Yeah.

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You're exactly right.

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So, awkwardness is an

emotion of discomfort.

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You know, sometimes people will say,

what's the difference between just

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being uncomfortable and feeling awkward?

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Well, there's lots of ways

we can feel uncomfortable.

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We can be afraid.

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We can be anxious.

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Awkwardness in particular is unique

because it is a social emotion.

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So, Julia, as you started to

say, it is not something we

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typically feel by ourselves.

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If I'm in my office right now and a song

comes on and I just am blasting this

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song lyric and I'm saying the song lyric

all wrong, I am just, you know, failing

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miserably, but no one is there to hear me.

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I might have other emotions about it, but

awkwardness is not typically one of them.

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Awkwardness is something we feel in

social settings when someone else,

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or we're publicly in a place where

we're like, Oh, I didn't expect that.

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And so you are exactly right.

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It is very, uh, in line with and because

of our need for social acceptance.

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Our brains still have a very real

and very hardwired, need to belong.

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And so we are constantly doing

this scan because our human

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brains, we want to fit in.

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We want to cooperate.

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And so whether we mean to or not,

our brains are consciously and

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subconsciously doing this whisper

quiet scan for the approval of others,

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which is where this emotion comes from.

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Julie: And I'm gonna assume

it's just getting worse.

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It's just getting worse

because of social media.

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Because of, you know, likes

and hearts and comments.

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Like, our need for that.

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To not feel awkward, not, not just not

feel awkward, but to feel accepted and

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liked and loved and whatever, no matter

how superficial it is, is driving a lot of

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Henna: Yeah.

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So why, why a conversation on awkwardness?

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Why now?

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So you've hit one, you've hit one of

them, which is we live in an increasingly

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fishbowl esque world where it feels

like our validation is coming from

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these likes and clicks and whatnot.

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So that, that's part of it.

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But there's actually a

second part of it too.

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There is a weakening of our

social musculature that's

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happening just across the country

because of the way our society.

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has optimized for smoothness.

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So a couple things happening in

the social media spheres, we don't

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have to react or respond to those

types of conversations in real time.

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They're not real time, they're

asynchronous, meaning somebody can

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comment or chat and we can get back

to them later if we really want to.

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We don't have that real

time social muscle flex.

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And also just anecdotally, there has been

a diminishment of public space spaces.

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We used to, you know, meet up in

parks and libraries and things

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more often as a society of humans.

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We just generally don't have as

many of those spaces anymore.

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People don't go to church as much anymore.

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You know, we just don't have

those same opportunities.

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And again, increasingly because

of society, we don't have to flex

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our social muscles on a daily

basis at all if we don't want to.

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So let's just say Julie today, if

I don't want to talk to anybody,

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I can order my dinner on DoorDash.

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I can text everybody that I need

to get in touch with, have to have

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a conversation or look a person

in the eye if I don't want to.

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And because of that,

that muscle is weakening.

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We don't have any

opportunities to practice.

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So when we do get to a conversation,

let alone a tough conversation that

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could be awkward, those muscles are

much weaker than they used to be.

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Julie: you know, I hadn't thought of it

that way because I think when we think

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about social awkwardness and we think

about our lack of social interaction,

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we tend to blame it, not blame it,

we tend to put it on Gen Z because

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they're the ones who were predominantly

schooled, the academic schooling was

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done via Zoom because of the pandemic.

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So I think they take the abrunt of

this, like we're not, they're not

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socially connected, they don't know

how to do face to face interactions,

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but you've just explained how it's...

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Now it's every generation

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Henna: It is 100 percent

unfairly put on Gen Z.

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I will give you an example and my

husband, I love him dearly, but I'm

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going to call him out right now.

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The example I've been telling lately is

we were ordering dinner the other day.

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We were, you know, on, we were trying

to order our favorite tacos on DoorDash

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and the DoorDash app was glitching.

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It wasn't working correctly.

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So I said, you know, babe, can

you call to order our tacos?

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And he goes, I don't want to call,

let's just get pizza instead.

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And I'm thinking, I want to talk, my

husband is a 43, 44 year old man, right?

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So it's, no, it's not just Gen Z.

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We have gotten away from

opportunities to interact.

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And, you know, I, I will, you know,

I'm going to put a little fire

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under your listeners right now.

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If you have ever been in the

grocery store line, And taking

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out your phone just to avoid eye

contact or chit chat with someone.

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This is you.

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If you've ever been on an elevator

and hammered the elevator door

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button shut so you didn't have

to have small talk, this is you.

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If you wear headphones in a coffee

shop on a subway so you don't

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have to even look at anyone.

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This is you.

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Our muscles are weakening and

we are playing a part in that

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as every generation right now,

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Julie: Yeah, I'm the exact opposite

of everything you just described.

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I'm the person who's

like, Hey, what'd you do?

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Where'd you get that bag?

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That hat is pretty.

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Like, I'm immediately

talking to everybody.

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Part of the reason is because

I just find humans fascinating.

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Like, I find the experience fascinating.

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I know everybody has a ridiculous story to

tell or something that's happened to them.

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And I, even if it's like just a moment

of interaction with them, I want a

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little piece of what they have to offer.

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And I, maybe I don't get as

embarrassed as other people or

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as quickly embarrassed as other

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Henna: It could be.

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I mean, there's certainly,

there's, there's, there's two

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comments I'd have there is one is

there's two components to this.

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There's one of, you know, a little

bit of our natural wiring, but that

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is according to research, maybe 50%.

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The second part of this, which we

can talk about more in detail is

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there's an element of conditioning.

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There's an element of doing the darn

thing, and I would argue, Julie, and you

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and I are wired similarly, you know, this,

this is a book about awkwardness, but it

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is not a book just for introverts, I am an

extrovert, I am a 100 percent extrovert,

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but what you're describing is something

that I really believe to be true in my own

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career, you know, there's that expression,

Luck is preparation meets opportunity.

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I, I, I, like you, even if

it's slightly awkward, we'll

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have that hello, that dialogue.

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And guess what?

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That's where opportunity lives,

in meeting new people and putting

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yourself in different situations.

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So yeah, I feel like I've been very lucky

the last two years, but hey, guess what?

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Half of that equation is opportunity,

and our social musculature declining

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is making those opportunities

harder and harder to come by.

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Julie: Yeah.

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I mean, your book, I love some of the

examples you had in your book, and

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I've listened to your TED Talks, and,

you have this story in your TED Talk

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about how you had a boss who used to

call you Helen, and you never corrected

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them because you thought it would be

awkward to correct them when you have

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every right to be called the right name.

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Um, and you also, in your book, talk

about how our, our sort of societally,

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culturally, we love Jennifer Lawrence.

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Because she is so awkward, like, when

she won the Oscar, she tripped going up

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the stairs, it's like everybody's worst

nightmare, and she did it, and then

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she joked about it a couple years later

that, um, that Meryl Streep tripped her,

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Henna: Yeah.

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Julie: you know?

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Um, and so, I think your book

is all about sort of changing

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our mindset around awkwardness,

and you say it's a superpower.

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So, I think that's two questions.

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How is it a superpower?

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And if we can recognize that perhaps

it's a superpower, how do we embrace it?

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Henna: Yeah.

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So I'll start with the first part

of that, you know, just to, to

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answer the, is it about mindset?

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100%.

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It's, it's twofold.

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It's, it's about mindset and

awareness about what do we

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believe about this emotion.

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And then the second part is sort of the

action steps, the conditioning component.

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When it comes to this emotion, the one

thing I want to start with is this idea

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that you don't get to avoid awkwardness.

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Whoever the proverbial you is, you

listening, you, I'm talking to you

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right now, you don't get to avoid it

because to avoid awkwardness implies

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that you've somehow figured out how

to avoid all uncertainty in your life.

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And if you have figured that out,

call your girl up and give her the

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recipe because I don't know it.

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You know, it's not possible to avoid

awkwardness implies knowing exactly how

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every single person is going to react.

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It's, it's knowing that you'll

never trip over a crack in the

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sidewalk in front of other people.

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It is impossible.

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It's impossible.

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So.

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Trying to eliminate it and

thinking, you know what, once I

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get rid of this, I'll feel more

confident or I'll take more risks.

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Forget that.

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Put that to the side because

that's not happening.

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In fact, there are actually

benefits to this emotion.

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There are upsides to this emotion.

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So what I want to articulate very

early and importantly is that

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sometimes people hear, okay, being

awkward at work, but I don't want

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people to think I suck at my job.

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I don't want people to think

I'm, I'm no good at life.

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I don't want them to think

I'm clumsy, I'm weak, right?

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Even in personal interactions,

but awkwardness is not the

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same as ineptitude, right?

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I'm not, I'm not suggesting that

you come into meetings unprepared

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and stumbling over your words

because you should know better.

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What I am suggesting is that when

you've done a good job, you're

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generally competent, you're generally

prepared and that you have a moment.

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Where you say someone's name wrong,

or that you, you know, flub up the

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section of your work presentation.

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That if you are generally someone

who is competent and does good

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work, That that will not hurt

you the way you think it does.

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In fact, it humanizes you.

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It's something called the pratfall effect.

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It knocks you off this pedestal that

people sometimes put you on when you have

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no flaws and seem so perfect, it actually

makes you warmer and more likable.

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So there are so many upsides to

us taking this emotion and re.

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Imagining our relationship with

it and how it might serve us to

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lean into it a little bit more.

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Julie: I always feel like...

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When you're a professional speaker,

I'm a professional speaker,

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we tend to also watch a lot of

other professional speakers.

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And for me, when I see a speaker who you

know that there's no emotion behind it,

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they're just, they've just memorized it.

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They're not, there's nothing

ad lib, there's nothing ad hoc.

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That to me, I don't connect with those

people as much as people who like me

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in the middle of a presentation where

I flip a slide and I go, Oh shit, I

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didn't know that side was the next one.

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Hold on.

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Let me go back.

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You know, kind of thing

that does humanize you.

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It does connect you with the other

person because we all, I don't know.

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I mean, it's not that we

want other people to fail.

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We just want to, you know, have

something that connects us.

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And I think all of our abilities to not

be perfect or something that connects us.

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Henna: Yeah.

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And I think, again, this is the

challenge of modern society because,

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you know, social media and the

optics that we're able to curate

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online is that this person, you know,

doesn't have clutter in their house.

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They don't have a pore on their face.

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They're all filtered out, right?

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We can put forth these

images of ourselves.

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But the truth is, and the research

corroborates the idea that the

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speakers or the leaders or the

people we look up to aren't.

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Typically, the ones that are a thousand

steps ahead and have perfection

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figured out, it's the ones that

are a couple of steps ahead, right?

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Just a little bit ahead of us,

still making mistakes along the way.

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The ones that the people we

perceive as most confident,

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ironically, don't avoid awkwardness.

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They actually lean into it harder

and their comeback rate is faster.

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When we look at someone who's confident,

they're the person who can burp loudly

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in the middle of the room and go,

Oh my gosh, that was awkward, right?

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And just own that moment so that

we can all relax, all of our

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shoulders drop, and we can move on.

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That person actually wins the Confidence

Award over the person that pretends

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like it never happened because they're

able to take that humanity and own it.

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Come back from it, move on.

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Julie: Do you suggest that people try

to do awkward things to see how it

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feels or to see what the reaction is?

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Henna: Yeah, so, so, you know, what

we're, what we're not looking for

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is falsified moments of awkwardness.

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I think that's sort of counterintuitive.

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You know, part of the, the discussion

in the book is we talk a lot in

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this modern day about authenticity.

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That's like a big buzzword right now.

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And what I think about the, the awkward

conversation as is what is one of these

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obstacles to authenticity and it's

the inability to withstand awkward

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moments is one of those obstacles.

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But what I don't want is for

people to start performing.

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in either direction.

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I don't want them to perform by

pretending someone they're not

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in order to avoid awkwardness.

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I also don't want them

to perform awkwardness.

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But where there is opportunity

is to put yourself in situations

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where that's more likely to occur.

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So in the context of what we talked

about earlier, The next time you're in

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the grocery store line, I'm going to

challenge your listeners to do this.

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The next time you're in a grocery store

line, just keep your phone in your

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pocket and see if you can make eye

contact with someone and maybe just

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say good morning or say hello, right?

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The next time you're on a subway or in a,

on a train or in a, you know, coffee shop,

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maybe just for 10 minutes, 15 minutes.

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Leave the headphones out

and just, just see, right?

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I'm not saying go out of your way

to say something uncomfortable,

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but create moments where you might

invite a social happenstance moment

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that otherwise is engineered away.

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You know, call your restaurant

and order your dinner tomorrow.

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Guess what?

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They still, they, they still,

they still allow that, right?

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All right.

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Julie: phone.

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You know, it's so funny.

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I was thinking the other day, um, I

read a lot of books, business books,

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and also guilty pleasure books.

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And I was.

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I was reading, I was laying

in bed the other day.

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I was, I happen to be reading

on my Kindle, which I, I

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like a hardcover book better.

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But this particular one was on my Kindle

and it reminded me of when I was young.

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And I had first moved to

Boston and I would take the

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green line to work every day.

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And this was before Kindles, it was

before iPhones, you know, people

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were still, I had a Blackberry.

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Okay.

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You know, and I used to love my

train ride in the morning because I

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would see what everybody was reading.

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Because everybody had a hard cover or

a paperback and it was my excuse to

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say to a person is that book any good?

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And then that person would immediately be

like, oh my god Yeah, like let me like or

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they say you know what it's really hard

to get into but it's starting to pick up

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and it Would cause this really natural

Conversation and I think about that.

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I don't take the train anymore because

I live in the suburbs, but Even if I

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did, that's gone because everybody's

reading on their phone or if they have

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a Kindle, they're reading on their

Kindle and you can't see what it is.

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And so when somebody asks me a

question, so say I wear kind of

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interesting clothing and when somebody

says, Oh, where did you get that?

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Or I like your shirt.

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I'll, I'll be like, Oh my God.

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Yes.

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Let me tell you where I got it.

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And I stand the conversation.

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Because I'm really into just these

sort of single serving conversations.

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They don't have to go anywhere.

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But if you, somebody said, Oh, I like

your shirt and I would send, Okay, thanks.

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Like, that's...

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That's not, for me, that's not

thanking them enough for, for

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putting themselves out there and

asking me or telling me the comment.

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Henna: and part of withstanding

awkwardness is understanding

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:

that that may be the reaction

that you get from some people.

363

:

So what are we celebrating?

364

:

Are we celebrating, oh, this

person like loved talking to me?

365

:

No, actually.

366

:

You know, one of the terms they use in

the book is crossing the cringe chasm.

367

:

If you do that, if you say to someone,

Hey, I really love your shirt.

368

:

And that's an edge for you, right?

369

:

To kind of speak up and speak out.

370

:

And they're like, Oh, thanks.

371

:

You know what?

372

:

Celebrate your damn self.

373

:

You said the thing.

374

:

It doesn't, you can't control

other people's reactions,

375

:

but you said the thing.

376

:

You did a mental rep, right?

377

:

A social rep.

378

:

The same way in the gym, that's a rep.

379

:

You put in a rep and that serves you no

matter how that other person reacted.

380

:

And the truth of the matter is there,

you know, there are some situations

381

:

that are easier than others.

382

:

I'm, I'm from Philly Metro.

383

:

It is very easy when you are walking

in the grocery store and someone's

384

:

got a hat on to go, go birds, right?

385

:

Like, that is like our, you know,

it's basically hello, right?

386

:

But how many other times in previous

lives have we had just other reasons?

387

:

To do that that we've gotten away from and

it doesn't have to be big Herculean stuff.

388

:

It could be as simple as Great bag or you

know, whatever But these little micro reps

389

:

these these social repetitions are what we

need in order to withstand The networking

390

:

event the salary negotiation, you know,

if we are not putting in the reps and

391

:

small stakes moments We will not have the

courage to tolerate the big stakes moments

392

:

Julie: Yeah.

393

:

And I think as we look at society

in general, when we look at, I love

394

:

that term, I hadn't heard of it

before the social muscular flex.

395

:

When we look back on the surgeon general's

loneliness epidemic report, the idea that.

396

:

Us just embracing the cringe a

little bit can do so much for

397

:

our basic human connection.

398

:

I always say in my speeches that the

extra mile is never crowded because

399

:

nobody goes even the extra inch.

400

:

And like these little moments of just

like, I'm gonna put myself out there,

401

:

it might be awkward, I might be awkward,

but We need more social connection, we

402

:

need more humans talking to each other.

403

:

Um.

404

:

I think it could do a lot for the world.

405

:

Henna: It's funny.

406

:

I was, I was thinking that as you were

talking earlier about the connection

407

:

between this and the loneliness epidemic,

you know, the same way, and I'm sure

408

:

in the spheres you speak on, you think

about this too, like corporate culture

409

:

isn't something that leadership can just

throw down like a blanket and be like,

410

:

everybody, corporate culture is this now.

411

:

No, we, we know you and I that.

412

:

That culture is created between

a conversation between two

413

:

people slowly over time, right?

414

:

Same thing with community.

415

:

The loneliness epidemic isn't going to get

solved by an app or a wave of the wand.

416

:

It's one conversation at a time.

417

:

And so we as individuals, and I hope

this is empowering to someone listening.

418

:

You slowly can be the domino that

helps with the loneliness epidemic.

419

:

It just involves you, again,

keeping your phone in your bag.

420

:

I was at a, I want to share

a really kind of quick story.

421

:

I was on the airport

shuttle the other day.

422

:

I live, um, a little bit from the airport.

423

:

So I park at the garage and

then take the shuttle over.

424

:

I was on the airport shuttle and

these, it was a full shuttle.

425

:

These people, One, one gentleman

sitting next to me in a cross, just they

426

:

struck up conversation, which I loved.

427

:

Nobody was on their phone.

428

:

It was actually shocking.

429

:

Not a single person was on their phone.

430

:

They struck up conversation.

431

:

It turns out they, he grew

up in the same town that this

432

:

other couple currently lived in.

433

:

And he, you know, they, they

were, Oh, I know that street.

434

:

I lived on that street.

435

:

My dentist was on that street.

436

:

She goes, who was your dentist?

437

:

I was a hygienist at that dentist.

438

:

Long story short, this

ended with your Tom.

439

:

I remember you had a gap in your teeth.

440

:

I used to be in your mouth.

441

:

I kid you not, I, and everyone on

the shuttle is just giggling, right?

442

:

It truly was a core memory moment for me.

443

:

Because had everyone been on their

phone, that moment of just sheer

444

:

joy would never have occurred.

445

:

And it was just, to me, such a reminder

of why I'm so passionate about this work.

446

:

Like, put in the little micro rep.

447

:

You don't know where it will lead.

448

:

And there's so much, so much upside.

449

:

Just so much.

450

:

Julie: You know, it's funny and

I hate to blame everything on the

451

:

phone because it's a bigger social

conversation than just phones,

452

:

Henna: that can numb us.

453

:

Yeah, yeah.

454

:

Julie: Yeah, it's a huge, huge part of

our lack of connection and my husband

455

:

and I have a rule whether we're at home

or whether we're out, out for dinner at

456

:

a restaurant, we don't bring our phones.

457

:

Um, and we don't have children, so

this is a little bit easier for us

458

:

because we don't have to check in

on children or make sure that we have

459

:

a phone for children, um, to call

babysitters or anything like that,

460

:

Henna: sure.

461

:

Julie: but it came as a byproduct of.

462

:

looking around restaurants and realizing

no one was talking to each other.

463

:

And I was like, why are you here?

464

:

Like, why are you sitting in this

beautiful restaurant, you know,

465

:

and not looking at each other

and not having a conversation?

466

:

So, we have a no phone rule

and it's funny because we just

467

:

went on vacation with friends.

468

:

Um, we went to a couple's...

469

:

A resort in the Caribbean.

470

:

We went out to dinner every night

and we don't bring our phones.

471

:

And towards like the second day they

were like, Okay, no phones at the table.

472

:

Like, even they were doing it.

473

:

Even though they have kids.

474

:

Like, no phones at the table.

475

:

Like, because it is such a distraction.

476

:

Henna: Yeah, yeah, and I agree with you.

477

:

I think the phones are perhaps one of the

most pervasive awkward avoidance tactics

478

:

right now, but it can be anything, right?

479

:

Yeah, I mentioned like hammering the

elevator button shut or headphones

480

:

or alcohol or drugs, anything

that can numb us away from the

481

:

discomfort that comes with, I don't

know how this interaction will go.

482

:

I don't know how to react

or how to act right now.

483

:

That is the opportunity.

484

:

I know what I'm asking is not easy.

485

:

It is very easy for me.

486

:

Let me not be on a pedestal here.

487

:

It is very easy for me to pull out my

phone instead of forcing myself to keep

488

:

it in my bag on an elevator, in line.

489

:

On a shuttle.

490

:

It is my instinct is to pull it out.

491

:

So, you know, I don't share this

as some guru who has this perfect.

492

:

I share this as I'm on this journey with

you because I understand and especially,

493

:

you know, I it's not just for adults.

494

:

It's for kids to I'm I'm

trying to teach my kids.

495

:

I need you to go to the counter and

tell them that your order was incorrect.

496

:

I need you to be able to say

these things without going, Mom,

497

:

I don't want to ring the doorbell.

498

:

We're just supposed to text, we're

supposed to send a text that says

499

:

we're here from the driveway.

500

:

And I'm like, well, that may

be what we're supposed to do.

501

:

But to me, there's a rep that

needs to occur here, and I'd

502

:

like you to ring the doorbell.

503

:

Like, does it earn favor

from my 13 year old daughter?

504

:

Not so much.

505

:

She doesn't love me for it.

506

:

But I believe strongly That, in an

increasingly technological world, I'm

507

:

willing to withstand a little bit of

her disgust over mom making her flex

508

:

this social muscle over what I believe

will be the long term benefit of doing

509

:

Julie: Yeah.

510

:

I think you hit the nail on the

head when it comes to a phrase you

511

:

said when it comes to networking

512

:

Henna: Mm hmm.

513

:

Julie: people because I see people going

into networking events and immediately

514

:

getting on their phone because they don't

know anybody in the room and they feel

515

:

awkward and that is a crutch for them.

516

:

But you said, I don't know

how this conversation will go.

517

:

And I think that is the crux of a

lot of people's anxieties around

518

:

going into networking events and

talking to people they don't know.

519

:

I don't know where this

conversation is gonna go.

520

:

And you talked about it earlier.

521

:

You said, it's Being prepared for things

being prepared to have conversations

522

:

to know what you're going to say and

I think that can take some of the

523

:

awkwardness away, but you cannot control

how other people respond to your questions

524

:

or, you know, to you as a person.

525

:

So I think being able to say, I don't

know how this conversation is going to go.

526

:

I don't know if this

person's going to like me.

527

:

I don't know if they're going to give

one word answers and just be prepared for

528

:

whatever may happen in that conversation.

529

:

Henna: Yeah.

530

:

No, I agree with you, Julie, fully.

531

:

And I would say, you know, when it comes

to networking in particular, I recommend

532

:

sort of three things happen in advance.

533

:

One is, recalibrate your expectations.

534

:

You might go in with the best talk tracks.

535

:

You might go in with the greatest

story, the greatest elevator pitch.

536

:

And everyone might be in a mood

that day and you can't control that.

537

:

Maybe the company announced some news,

which has half the people feeling away.

538

:

You know, you can't control that.

539

:

So recalibrate your expectations.

540

:

Number two, rework your goals

of that networking event.

541

:

If your goal is people are going to

like me and I'm going to have this

542

:

type of thing, then you're going

to go in only looking for that.

543

:

But if your goal is, you know, I'm

going to meet two new people today.

544

:

And it's not really about how

they perceive me or whatever.

545

:

That's my goal.

546

:

And if I do that, I'm going to be

proud of myself and I'm going to

547

:

treat myself to whatever later today.

548

:

Right?

549

:

And number three is, and you mentioned

this, is be prepared not just for what

550

:

you're planning to say professionally,

but I encourage people to have some

551

:

little talk track for those that feel

super uncomfortable and awkward about

552

:

introducing themselves to folks.

553

:

So in the book, I share a story

of a leader named Satya and her.

554

:

Talk track was, my sister made

a bet that I wouldn't talk to

555

:

two new people today, a 20 bet.

556

:

So I don't like to lose,

would you be one of them?

557

:

It's like a playful, calming,

relatable entry point.

558

:

And she practiced saying that line

in the mirror a bunch of times

559

:

because she knew this was tough

for her, but she had it down.

560

:

She found two people that she felt

like, okay, I think I can do this.

561

:

That one of those two people ended

up being a major partner for her on

562

:

a project who she wouldn't have even

met had she not practiced this ahead.

563

:

So, you know, practice your

elevator pitch, but also practice

564

:

your entry point in admitting,

Hey, this is uncomfortable for me.

565

:

It's okay.

566

:

It's okay.

567

:

Julie: Yeah.

568

:

It's, it's funny.

569

:

I, when it comes to networking and

the people who listen to this podcast

570

:

have heard this a million times,

there's nothing else in our business,

571

:

in the different aspects of what we

do for our business that we wouldn't

572

:

go into an activity without a goal.

573

:

Without saying, this is what

I want to accomplish with

574

:

this activity that I'm doing.

575

:

And yet, somehow, we think that

we should just wing networking.

576

:

And just go in without a goal, without

a plan, without being prepared.

577

:

And that's why networking sucks so much.

578

:

Henna: Yes.

579

:

I a hundred percent agree.

580

:

And I think, you know,

people need to re define.

581

:

And I know you believe this because I

was listening to so many other episodes.

582

:

It's It's not a passive effort, right?

583

:

Networking is an active, active

conversation amongst humans that can be

584

:

beneficial no matter what level you are,

wherever you sit in the organization

585

:

and your life and your career.

586

:

But you have to do that mental pre

work and prep in order to feel good.

587

:

You know, it's um, I love the

concept of self handicapping, right?

588

:

So people self handicap, meaning they

don't do the thing because if they don't

589

:

prepare and if they don't do the mental

pre work and they don't research, then

590

:

when they wing it and it doesn't go well,

They can say, well, you know, it didn't

591

:

go well, so I never have to do it again.

592

:

But essentially they've

deliberately underprepared.

593

:

So then they don't have to find

out if they're actually any good.

594

:

Julie: Exactly.

595

:

Henna: we self handicap, and

we, as humans, deserve better

596

:

from ourselves than doing that.

597

:

Julie: Yeah.

598

:

I think as we wrap up, you in the

book say, awkwardness is our greatest.

599

:

asset Is that because we are losing

it or is that because it is the key

600

:

to social connection and like, why

do you think it's the greatest asset?

601

:

Henna: All of the above.

602

:

So, you know, couple things.

603

:

First of all, it's a signal, right?

604

:

When you feel awkward, it is a

signal from your modern brain that

605

:

says, hey, something about this

situation is making me want approval,

606

:

or it's making me feel unsteady.

607

:

And any time your brain gives you

a signal, what a great opportunity.

608

:

To explore it, right?

609

:

The truth is, if you have growth goals,

if you're you know, status quo, Sally,

610

:

and you're just good where you are,

status quo, whoever, you're good where

611

:

you are, then hey, don't worry about it.

612

:

You don't need to worry about any of this.

613

:

But if you have ambition to do something

different in your life, to grow, to

614

:

transform, to expand, then you will

hit awkwardness at every transition

615

:

point, at every inflection point, and

those data points are healthy to say,

616

:

hey, here's something I could stand to.

617

:

examine again about why does

this particular situation

618

:

make me feel really awkward?

619

:

It's data, right?

620

:

And then secondarily, that data

points to a very powerful opportunity

621

:

to say, Hey, here's a muscle

that I could stand to strengthen.

622

:

You know, I, I believe very strongly that

social muscle is like physical muscle, but

623

:

not just that it requires strengthening.

624

:

Also with physical muscle.

625

:

We don't just strengthen the

ones that are already strong.

626

:

Like if I have strong legs because I run

and I only continue to strengthen my legs.

627

:

My shoulders are not doing any

better than they were yesterday.

628

:

So when it relates to awkwardness and

when it relates to wanting to take more

629

:

chances, more risks, can you use that

signal, that signpost to say, here's

630

:

the muscle that is currently weak?

631

:

Because you are going to see the

greatest gains if you work on a

632

:

muscle that is currently weak,

rather than ones that's strong.

633

:

So use that as a signal to

serve your next level of growth.

634

:

Julie: And I think there's also a

lesson here too, maybe especially

635

:

for those of us on the, not me,

I'm extroverted, but who are on the

636

:

introverted side of the ambivert

spectrum, that when you are working a

637

:

muscle, there is need for recovery and

638

:

Henna: Yeah, sure.

639

:

Julie: It's the only way you're going

to continue to be as effective as you

640

:

can when you are working that muscle.

641

:

Henna: I'm glad you brought that up

a hundred percent and also not to be

642

:

afraid to make downward adjustments

So, you know if you're if you're

643

:

trying to flex some of this social

muscle and you try something and you're

644

:

like it really it took It out of me.

645

:

It didn't feel that good.

646

:

That's okay.

647

:

Maybe next time one step

back two steps back, right?

648

:

Can you make a little little downward

adjustment to something that feels more

649

:

palatable and slowly work your way up?

650

:

No one is grading you for your

attempts But we are applauding you

651

:

for attempting right like that.

652

:

That's the new celebration

is you tried You tried.

653

:

The outcome is irrelevant to me.

654

:

You tried something, and if this

was too much, downward adjustments,

655

:

no one is faulting you for it.

656

:

Julie: And one more thing in your

TED talk, you referenced a:

657

:

KPMG study about risk taking and

how it's easier to take risks

658

:

in a group than take them alone.

659

:

So maybe there's something there

about maybe somebody can help

660

:

you with these conversations.

661

:

Maybe you can have a wing person

to help you in these situations.

662

:

I have a friend in the

industry who said, I've always.

663

:

I've always loved having Julie go

to events with me because she would

664

:

always say the first, you know,

she would always in, you know,

665

:

initiate the first conversation and

then I could just come in with it.

666

:

She said, I feel bad for

people who don't have a Julie.

667

:

And so it's like, I think there's

something there about if you're afraid

668

:

to do it alone, find your person who you

can talk to somebody on the train with,

669

:

or, you know, at the grocery store with,

um, if, if that is indeed true, that

670

:

it's easier to take risks as a group.

671

:

Henna: 100%.

672

:

I mean, everyone's at different

places in this journey, right?

673

:

It's, it's good to evaluate and

take stock of where am I on this

674

:

journey, and I 100 percent agree.

675

:

I think, you know, Even in the context

of underrepresented, marginalized folks,

676

:

sometimes it can feel more challenging

systemically to speak up in the room.

677

:

It can feel more awkward to say,

Hey, I don't agree with this.

678

:

So perhaps, you know, if I have

a, I'm in a position of perceived

679

:

power or seniority, I might look

around the room and say, you know,

680

:

Julie, I noticed that you're, you

had a little eye flicker there.

681

:

I feel like you had something to add.

682

:

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this?

683

:

Right.

684

:

Inviting people into the conversation.

685

:

100%.

686

:

allyship is.

687

:

always going to be part of the

conversation about helping others

688

:

embrace their awkward moments.

689

:

Julie: Yeah, looking for those social

cues that we, again, we are losing

690

:

our ability to notice them more and

more because we are, as you say,

691

:

not flexing that social muscle.

692

:

Um, I think that's really

important that you have said that.

693

:

Um, Hannah Pryor is the author of

Good, Awkward, How to Embrace the

694

:

Embarrassing and Celebrate the

Cringe to Become the Bravest You.

695

:

Hannah, thank you so much for being here.

696

:

Henna: This was a blast.

697

:

Thank you for having me.

698

:

My favorite thing that Hannah said

in our conversation was awkwardness

699

:

is not the same as ineptitude.

700

:

And the reason why I love this is

because in general, when we are

701

:

trying to master new things, we

begin by being awkward at them.

702

:

We aren't inept.

703

:

We aren't incapable.

704

:

We just need to create the muscle

memory around the activity we need to

705

:

slowly get better at that activity.

706

:

Awkwardness is not an aptitude.

707

:

And this was evident when she said

that most of the people we look

708

:

up to or aspire to be like, aren't

a thousand steps ahead of us.

709

:

They're just a few steps ahead of us.

710

:

They're just a little better

at the thing than we are.

711

:

She also mentioned that we can't

control how people react to us.

712

:

Especially, you know, this is

true in networking conversations,

713

:

but we can certainly control.

714

:

How prepared we are.

715

:

We can control how we feel about

ourselves and about our effort.

716

:

So.

717

:

Celebrate that you've begun to cross

the cringe chasm as she calls it.

718

:

You know, every time you do that.

719

:

Celebrate that little effort that

you did, even if you don't get their

720

:

perfect response from your effort.

721

:

Remember awkwardness humanizes us.

722

:

It connects us.

723

:

It.

724

:

Just might be your superpower, who knows.

725

:

Now onto the drink of the

week, which I picked, because

726

:

I think it has an awkward name.

727

:

That's literally the only

reason why I picked it.

728

:

It's the Harvey Wallbanger, which the

exact origin of the name is unclear,

729

:

but it is believed to have been

popularized in the:

730

:

The most common story behind the name.

731

:

Is that it was named after a

California surfer named Harvey who

732

:

frequently banged against walls

while drinking this cocktail?

733

:

I don't know.

734

:

That seems like a stretch, but

anyways, The cocktail mixology itself

735

:

is credited to three time world

champion mixologist, Denato duke

736

:

and Tony of Hartford, Connecticut.

737

:

Where he ran the bartend new

school of mixology, and worked

738

:

as a cocktail consultant.

739

:

And Tony.

740

:

I mean, I don't know, is this

how you pronounce it again?

741

:

Awkward.

742

:

A N T O N E Anthony and

Tony and, and Tenae.

743

:

Is also credited with.

744

:

Is also credited with Freddy FID Parker.

745

:

This is a cocktail Freddie FID pucker.

746

:

Which swaps the vodka in the Harvey

Wallbanger drink for tequila.

747

:

And this drink was not nearly as popular.

748

:

Maybe because it's a little too awkward.

749

:

I don't know.

750

:

Here's what you're going

to need for the hobby.

751

:

Harvey Wallbanger one and a quarter

ounces of vodka, half an ounce of Galliano

752

:

liquor, three ounces of orange juice.

753

:

And for a garnish, you're going

eating an orange slice and a cherry.

754

:

Where you're going to do is fill a tall

glass, like a Collins glass with ice, and

755

:

then add the vodka and orange juice and

stir, and then float the Galliano on top.

756

:

Garnish with that skewered orange

slice in maraschino cherry.

757

:

All right.

758

:

If you make it, let me know.

759

:

All right, friends,

that's all for this week.

760

:

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

761

:

and subscribe to the podcast.

762

:

Also, please remember

to share this podcast.

763

:

When you do that, it helps

it reach a larger audience.

764

:

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

765

:

This shit works on

Amazon and Barnes noble.

766

:

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

767

:

When you reach out, just let

me know where you found me.

768

:

Um, Julie Brown underscore VD on

the Instagram, or you can just

769

:

pop on over to my website to Lee

brown, bd.com until next week.

770

:

Cheers.

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About the Podcast

This Shit Works
The people you meet can 100% Change Your Life! Networking is how you meet those people. Which sucks because you hate networking, you think you're bad at networking, and you certainly don’t have time to network. Bullshit! Welcome to This Shit Works, a weekly podcast hosted by entrepreneur, CEO, public speaker, author, business development strategist and networking coach Julie Brown. Just don’t call her Downtown Julie Brown - she doesn’t like that.

Each week Julie will bring to you her no nonsense tips, tricks and conversations around networking your way to more friends, more adventures and way more success!
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