Episode 200 - bonus

Bonus Ep: How to Combine Power & Status to Be A Likable Badass with Alison Fragale

Published on: 28th August, 2024

In this special bonus episode of This Shit Works, host Julie Brown explores the fascinating balance between being likable and being a badass with guest Alison Fragale, author of Likable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve. Julie and Alison break down the psychology of power vs. status, the importance of warmth in leadership, and why self-promotion is vital—especially for introverts.

Julie and Alison also touch on the value of relationships in career success, the impact of humor in building warmth, and the role of networking in achieving your goals. Don’t miss this episode filled with actionable insights, empowering advice, and a reminder that the people you meet can change your life.

Key Topics:

  • The difference between power and status
  • Why caring about what others think isn’t bad advice
  • The introvert’s guide to self-promotion
  • The importance of networking and how people you meet change your life

Grab Alison's book, Likable Badass, hitting shelves on September 3rd!

Drink of the week….Queen Anne Cocktail


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Julie Brown:

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Alison Fragale

Website

LIKABLE BADASS


Transcript
Julie:

In today's special bonus episode, we're diving into two intriguing words.

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Likeable, an adjective meaning

pleasant, friendly, and easy to like.

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And then, badass.

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As an adjective, it means tough,

uncompromising, and intimidating.

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As a noun, it describes a

person with those attributes.

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Traditionally, we might not

associate the term badass with women,

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especially in the business world.

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Is badass a noun reserved for

men or can women embody this

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fierce uncompromising spirit too?

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Can women be both likable and badass?

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And if so, what can we expect

from this fascinating combination?

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Welcome to episode 200 of the

Shitworks, a podcast dedicated to

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all things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach.

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And today I am joined by

Alison Fregale, author of the

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upcoming book, Likeable Badass.

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How women get the success they deserve.

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As you know, friends, I put the

podcast on hold while I work on

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the proposal for my second book.

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But sometimes an author, a subject,

or an idea is too good to pass up

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when it comes across your desk.

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And that is exactly what happened when my

friend and former podcast guest, Nicole

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Khalil, introduced me to our guest list.

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Today, Alison is the Mary Farley

Ames Lee distinguished scholar

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of organizational behavior at the

university of North Carolina, Chapel

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Hill school of business as a research

psychologist, award winning professor

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and international keynote speaker.

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She's on a mission to help others,

especially women use behavioral

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science to work and live better.

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Well, doesn't all of that sound amazing.

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So let's dive in.

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Shall we, Alison, welcome to the podcast.

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Alison: Thank you so much for having me.

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And I did not know it was episode 200.

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I feel kind of giddy about

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Julie: I know, right.

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I like it.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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I was like, I'm going to have the

episode 200 has to be something special.

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It has to be a bonus episode.

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So, um, listen, thank you.

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You sent me your book.

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I've got it.

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Thank you so much.

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One of the first things you cover

in the book is the difference

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between power And status.

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And I love that you say that power,

things like money, a seat at the table,

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these are things that you can earn.

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But status, you know, how much you're

respected, how much you're valued,

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that lives in the minds of others.

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Can we break that down a little bit?

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Alison: 100%.

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So this is a key distinction.

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So power is controlling resources

that other people value.

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So it is money at life or in work.

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It's a title that gives you

authority to say yes or no to give

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someone a good or bad performance

review to spend the budget.

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So when we get in control

of resources, we have power.

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Status, as you point out, is how respected

and regarded we are by other people,

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and, um, and that, with that definition,

what it means is that power is something

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we can possess, even if people wished

it weren't so, so you could have a boss

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and the boss is in charge, even if you

don't like the boss, and you, you know,

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you know, one really Um, uh, values

the boss, but the boss still has the

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control status is a decision that other

people make in their brains about us.

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Do I value this person?

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Do I respect this person?

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And so we can influence both power

and status, but it's important to

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recognize that we only get as much

status as other people say we have.

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We can create the right conditions,

but it's not a guarantee that if we

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have the right, uh, accomplishment

on our resume, or we've done the

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right work, that it always translates

into other people valuing us.

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And that's a challenge that women in

particular, among others have had for a

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really long time, which is I've done all

the things, but I'm not getting in that

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person's brain, the status that I deserve.

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And that's really what I care a

lot about and help people try to

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figure out one, what it is, and

then how do you get more of it?

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Julie: And this is something

that is harder for women to

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achieve than men because of

systemically, the way that we view.

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You know, power imbalance

between women or status imbalance

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between women and men, correct?

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Alison: That's right.

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So in, if I get, if I get.

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professory for a second.

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So, uh, gender is what we call an

ascribed status characteristic, meaning

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that we tend to award one group greater

respect than others, men more than women.

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And that's based on something that the

person does not control and that has no

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meaning, but we've given it some meaning.

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And so there's a, there's lots of

ascribed status characteristics,

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appearance, ethnicity, accent, race.

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It's not just gender.

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There's lots of things the ways in which

we show up in the world that people

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say that's worth more or that's worth

less and none of it has any meaning and

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that's why we think of it as systemic

bias but it has impact because it leads

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people in their brains to say oh that

person's idea is a better idea because

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of the you know the ascribed status of

who it came from oh that person's idea

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must not be very good so yeah that's

why it's harder for women is because

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gender is one of the many many things

that affects how much people respect us.

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Julie: and I would assume that we're

confusing the two sometimes That if we

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have power if we are making money if we

have that title then we have status But

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i'm assuming there's a confusion sometimes

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Alison: That's right.

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So they can go together.

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You can think of somebody who's in

control and everyone really respects them.

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So let's say, uh, in an organization,

you might have a leader and

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everyone really values that leader.

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And they also are in charge.

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Those then power and status are,

are high in, in, in that individual.

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But yes, people can have

one, but not the other.

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So we're going to talk about that.

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Um, one of the areas where

I've studied a lot is what we

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call low status power holders.

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Somebody who's in charge but

isn't particularly respected.

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And sometimes that could be

because of the position they hold.

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It could be, you know, if you're a

gatekeeper to a resource, if you're

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the one who controls the budget

or is in compliance or HR and you

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enforce the rules, sometimes you

get in that low status power holder.

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It's like you're standing in our

way, but you have the final say.

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Sometimes it's about the job and

sometimes it's about the person where

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the person has a lot of power, but

that person isn't really respected.

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And so, yes, those are separate.

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Dimensions, um, that do

not necessarily co vary.

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So we cannot assume that simply because

we've gotten promoted, or we're in

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charge, or we have a certain level of

wealth, even that people necessarily

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then give us the respect that we're due.

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So they don't, they don't always co vary.

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Um, but the other direction, having

being real well respected, Is a

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really good launching point for

getting more power, because we want

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to put resources in the hands of the

people we think will use them well.

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So if someone is a highly respected

individual, they have set themselves

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up well for being able to acquire

to negotiate for more power in their

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life or in their career, because

people are going to want to Yeah,

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Julie: I've heard some people say, you

shouldn't care what other people think.

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And I've always laughed at the saying,,

other people's opinions is none of my

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business, , but you're saying that

there's, there's something that in that

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statement that is, is holding us back.

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What, what do you mean by that?

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Like when we say we don't care about

what other people think about it.

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Alison: so it's very common to hear that.

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Oftentimes it's offered, um, to

try to make somebody feel better if

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they're got to had a bad outcome.

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Um, you know, and as a parent, I say

that sometimes to my kids, I was told

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that myself, and I always offer it in

moments where the kid is disappointed

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that another person isn't valuing them.

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And it's natural at that point

to say, well, it doesn't matter.

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And in some level, that could

be accurate, but it's not.

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But then if we take that to an extreme,

we can end up with bad outcomes.

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The idea is that a lot of our, um,

happiness and success is dependent

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on what other people believe about

us, because that we all have to

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interact with other human beings.

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We want friends.

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We need to be able to,

Um, sell things at work.

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We need to be able to have colleagues

who will help us out on projects.

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We need to be able to advance in our

career and have somebody say, I'm

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going to go in that meeting and tell

everyone what great work you did and,

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you know, help you get the promotion.

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So, so much of our ability to live

the life we want is other is working

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with and through other people.

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So if those people don't value us.

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then all those things get harder

and life gets more miserable.

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So we understand it, but there's a

natural tendency to say, forget about it.

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It seems so hard to control

what's in your brain.

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I'm not even going to try.

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Um, and I try to help unpack the

science so that I say to people, you

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do not need to sit at home obsessing

about what everybody thinks about you.

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But that doesn't mean you shouldn't

be strategic about showing up in

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ways that will allow you to get

maximum credit for your awesomeness.

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in other people's minds.

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And so it's not an obsession or a

rumination, but it is a recognition that

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if other people think that I have value

to bring, that will probably make my

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life better in a lot of different ways.

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And does it have to be

everybody at all times?

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No.

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But I don't like the idea of people

thinking that not caring, about their

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audience is a, is a badge of honor.

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If someone was a salesperson and

they said, um, you know what?

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I don't care what my customers think.

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It doesn't matter.

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You would say that salesperson

is going to be broke, right?

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And unemployed in a year,

because of course you have to

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care what your customers think.

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You need to say, what's

the problem you want?

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And how can my product

help solve your problem?

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And if I don't care about what you

think, how am I going to sell anything?

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It's no different for us, right?

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We are selling our brand and we do

need to understand how it's seen.

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And if it's not seen the way it

deserves to be seen, just like if I'm

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selling something, I got to tweak it

because I know what I have is great.

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And if you're not interested yet,

well, maybe it's just cause I

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haven't found the right approach.

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Julie: So I have two follow

up questions to that.

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I'll ask them at the same time

and then you can pick which

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one you want to answer first.

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One would be, what is an example

of showing up where you get maximum

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credit for your awesomeness?

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And number two, where is the line on

the brand being not, not everybody's

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cup of tea, but, but for those that

follow you, for those that buy your

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product, for those that hire you,

like that brand is perfect for them.

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Like you cannot please them.

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Everybody and I've learned that with my

own brand that my way of doing things

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is a turnoff to some organizations

and for other organizations.

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I'm exactly who they're

looking for on stage.

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So I'd love to know where where's the

knife's edge on not caring, but care,

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Alison: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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There is space for strategy

and authenticity to coexist.

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Let me go with the first question first

about what's an example of, of how

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you know how to do, how to do this?

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Um, generally speaking and where

the title of the book comes from is,

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and we, we might get into that, but

basically there's a science to status.

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Yes, we want people to respect

us, but those decisions that

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people make aren't random.

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They're based on some predictable

things that everyone is looking for.

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And if we know those things, we

can show up in ways that say to

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another person's brain, Hey, I

have what you're looking for.

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And the two things are, we respect people

when we see them as really capable.

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They can get shit done.

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We give them a task.

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They're going to crush it.

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They're going to, they're,

they're competent.

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They're persistent.

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They're dedicated.

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They're organized.

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We value those qualities.

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Um, and so if I show somebody I'm

really capable, that is valuable.

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The other thing we care about is.

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How caring are you?

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Do you, do you value

people other than yourself?

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That's the likable piece.

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Again, not just being likable, but

do you add value to other people?

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We want, we don't want a

self interested person.

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We want somebody who is going

to put good out into the world.

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So anytime you can showcase

that I am capable, well.

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And I care about people other than

myself, you have done the thing you need

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to do to it to increase the likelihood

or that someone will respect you.

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So what are easy ways to do this?

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Sometimes it's just a simple tweak.

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So I say, like, you know,

I still today, right?

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We meet a lot of people for coffee,

maybe less than we did before COVID.

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But still, you meet someone for coffee.

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It's a professional You don't know

them very well and you think, I'm going

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to buy your coffee or you meet him

for lunch and I'll pay for the lunch,

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you know, that's a nice thing to do.

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Um, and you do it because you think,

oh, it's polite and it's definitely

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how I'm going to build my brand.

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I want to be seen, I don't

want to be seen as a taker.

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So I'm going to offer to pay, right?

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Here's the challenge though,

is that you could pay too.

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Like me buying your coffee is

very caring, it's nice, but it's

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not, it doesn't showcase me as

particularly capable, right?

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I, I could, you, anyone

could have done it.

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Um, and so thinking about how do I

tweak how I show up just in a little

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way to do something that showcases

my capability a little bit more.

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So I, for example, talk a lot about being

able to, you know, Instead of buying

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coffee, how about make an introduction?

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So we got introduced through Nicole.

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That was amazing.

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And when you introduce somebody

and you open up another opportunity

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for them, one, it doesn't take much

more effort than buying the coffee.

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It's an email, right?

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And two, it actually distinguishes

you as not only caring, I'm

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willing to use my network for

your benefit, but also capable.

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I know people who are

important and interesting.

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And so that could be a simple shift.

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And this is one of the personal.

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rules that I live by is every time

I meet new people, I think, who

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would they benefit from meeting?

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And I introduced them and super

quick, but it allows me to show up

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as more unique than simply, Hey,

I'll pay for the coffee next time.

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And that's what I try to help

people think about is things

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that aren't derailing your day.

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They don't feel inauthentic.

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You're like, if I have a mutually

beneficial introduction, I'm

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perfectly happy to make it.

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But once they understand the

science of capable plus caring, they

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start to recognize, Hey, Oh, okay.

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If I just did that little thing more

often that I like doing, that could

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be a way that I could start to stay

in front of my audience as a person of

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value who's using that value for others.

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And that's what gets me respect.

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Julie: I, there's a quote

and I'm sure you've heard it.

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And I'm, I apologize for not knowing

exactly who to credit it to, but

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there is a quote that says in five

years, you'll be the same exact person

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you are today, except for the books

you read and the people you meet.

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And I always think about that quote,

especially cause I teach networking, but

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also because there is so much knowledge

in, in books and people will say, Oh,

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every book has already been written,

but it hasn't, you know, especially

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something like yours, likeable badass.

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Um, I do want to get to the second part

of that question, which is if we know

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that people need to like us and we have

to be aware of what people think of us,

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like where is the line to which we are

true to ourselves and true to the brand

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and true to who we are and where we're

just trying to please people and have

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people like us for likeability sake.

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Alison: Absolutely.

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So, uh, the, I think about

when you're going to.

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When you're going to use your status and

you're going to say, I'm going to spend

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some of this, I'm going to do something.

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And at the end of this, you might see

me as less capable than you did before.

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Or you might see me as less

caring than you did before.

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Is it worth it?

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Or am I going to spend

time to invest in you?

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The way I think about this is to

start at the end of, of something

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like the end of your career.

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The end of you in this current

job you're in, or the end of you

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in five years, whatever it is.

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Start at the end of

something and work backward.

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And, and so, one task that I give

people, exercise that I give people,

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is imagine a going away party for you.

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Either when you've retired, you've left

the role you're in, whatever it is.

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And people will come, and they will give

toasts, and they will say nice things.

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things about you.

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And the question is, what

do you want them to say?

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What do you want them to

say that you've achieved?

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And what do you want them to say

about the person that you are?

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And in doing this, everybody wants

that event to be positive and they want

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to be celebrated, but people want to

be celebrated in very different ways.

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So one of the things I ask people

is, um, Like what are the top

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three characteristics you want

people to use to describe you?

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So, um, I have, um, uh, generous,

humorous, and principled.

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Julie: Okay.

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Alison: And those are

three that I really value.

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And when I have those, they help me

figure out what is worth, standing

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up for, what is worth What's worth

building a bridge, what's worth

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burning a bridge, and what's not.

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So, as an example, um, I, uh,

feel like how I use social media,

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I generally use social media as a

way to be generous and humorous.

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These are two of my goals, right?

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And so if it doesn't make you

laugh or it doesn't help you

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out, I don't put it up there.

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So when someone says something on social

media, that's kind of nasty to me,

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when someone says or something I don't

really agree with, but it's not harmful.

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It's just their opinion.

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I let it go.

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Because why?

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It's not in the, in the long term of what

I'm trying to achieve, doing those things

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and, and, and losing status in those

relationships isn't necessarily worth it.

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So there's, that's how I help people

think about what's worth doing

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and what's not, but principled.

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If I feel like another woman or a person

is being devalued or disrespected, it's

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And or that there's a process that's

not being applied fairly them and other

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people that gets me really angry, and

it attacks this other core value I

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have a principled and I will stand up

for those things and I will say, it

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doesn't matter if at the end of this

you like me less, or you don't want to.

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You don't want to hire me.

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I'm okay with that because it violates

what I consider to be correct so I

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you know, even um, I just had a had a

situation where I was gonna I did speak

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at an event and The Organizers we had

said we agreed for me speaking They would

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do a B C and D for me and right before

we went they said I'm gonna do a B C

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and D for You and when I got home and I

said, okay You Can I have A, B, C, and D?

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They said, Oh, we didn't do those things.

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And I had a question, decision to make,

am I going to say, Hey, I don't think you

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did the right thing in this relationship,

you didn't really treat me right.

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Or am I going to keep

my mouth shut about it?

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Because keeping my mouth shut might be,

you know, they'll like me more then.

355

:

And I said, no, I think if we

agreed to something and you didn't

356

:

do it on principle, I am going to

say that wasn't the right thing.

357

:

And I'm going to speak up for maybe all

the people who before me didn't feel

358

:

like they had the standing to speak up.

359

:

And I'm going to say, just so you

know, when you're in a relationship

360

:

like this, and you don't honor that.

361

:

That.

362

:

is hurtful and harmful to me.

363

:

And so I did, but principled

was what allowed me to say,

364

:

that's a risk worth taking.

365

:

So this is my general, those are

my specific examples, but the

366

:

general idea is if you figure out

where you're going at the end, I

367

:

always use the idea of a marathon.

368

:

We just came out of Olympics, right?

369

:

You watch these amazing athletes and

you know what they don't do to get

370

:

to their, the, the, to the Olympics.

371

:

They don't wake up one every day and

say, Um, I want to run really fast.

372

:

Like I want to be the

world's fastest person.

373

:

I'm just going to try to run

faster today than I did yesterday.

374

:

And then I'll just keep

doing that every day.

375

:

And eventually I'll get to the Olympics.

376

:

That's like not a training plan, right?

377

:

Doesn't work.

378

:

They have a goal that's okay in four

years, I need this time to qualify.

379

:

Okay.

380

:

What does that mean for

my training plan today?

381

:

What does that mean?

382

:

I do.

383

:

And I don't do, that's how we want

to think about our relationships

384

:

is you can't be everything to

everybody, but if you really

385

:

understand, what do I most want to be.

386

:

Then, when choices have to be made,

you can figure out, is this a time

387

:

to preserve my status, or to build

my status, or is this a time to use

388

:

the status that I do have to solve a

problem that's really important to me?

389

:

Julie: When we were talking about how

you show up to get maximum credit,

390

:

you've said capable and caring a number

of times, capable and caring together.

391

:

And warmth is a big, in the book,

warmth is a big component of being

392

:

a likable badass to which I say

shit because I don't think I'm like

393

:

the warmest person in the world.

394

:

So I feel like What is your advice to

somebody who's reading this who wants

395

:

to be a likable badass who but they're

like I'm not a warm and fuzzy person.

396

:

I'm just not I am I am I am filled with

sarcasm and wit and salty humor, but warm,

397

:

warm is not the way people describe me.

398

:

Yeah,

399

:

Alison: and wit and sarcasm

get, they go in warmth.

400

:

You wouldn't think they do, but they do.

401

:

So here's how this works.

402

:

Warmth is, you know, I use

the word warmth in the book.

403

:

I use the word caring in our conversation.

404

:

Same thing.

405

:

The idea is, do other people

see value in that you're adding

406

:

value to them, not just yourself.

407

:

Humor is a warmth building

because it's cohesive.

408

:

And when you make somebody

laugh, they feel good.

409

:

And even if your humor is sarcastic,

um, that can be a warmth building thing.

410

:

So the beauty of warmth is that there's

not just one characteristic, right?

411

:

That the list of characteristics

that, that, uh, comprise

412

:

that dimension are many.

413

:

Sincere, honest, helpful,

agreeable, giving.

414

:

So you don't have to do everything.

415

:

But here's what I always say about the

book is, um, I'm going to take as baseline

416

:

that people reading it have some talents

to share to the world, whatever they

417

:

are, and they care about somebody, at

least somebody other than themselves.

418

:

If neither of those things are

true, I cannot help you, but

419

:

you do care about other people.

420

:

And then the question is, what's

the authentic way to let that out?

421

:

And the, there doesn't have to be one way.

422

:

So I, like you, I am super sarcastic.

423

:

I love humor.

424

:

Um, that's been a calling card for me.

425

:

I'm a terrible smiler.

426

:

, but I do, um, love, complimenting people.

427

:

And so I'm a good complimenter.

428

:

I go out of my way to always, when I

see somebody say something nice about

429

:

them, I put those things on social media.

430

:

I spend a lot of my time on

social media shouting out

431

:

other people I think are great.

432

:

Those kind of things are warm, too.

433

:

And so, um, The idea of fine,

you have to find your way.

434

:

The reality is liking , and the warmth is

such a strong, um, Like, uh, fundamental

435

:

, basis of cohesion in relationships, we

have to find our way, it's not optional,

436

:

but the beauty is everyone has a way, so

I think trying on someone else's clothes

437

:

to do what they do is not gonna work,

but thinking about what's authentic to

438

:

you, and I've never had a person who I've

looked at and said, oh, yeah, you don't

439

:

do anything, That's good for other people.

440

:

You know, you're the most

selfish person I've ever met.

441

:

It's just about tweaking

it to get credit for it.

442

:

And that's where I feel really good

about helping people, especially

443

:

women who have inherited a problem

they do not deserve, is to say, yes,

444

:

you don't deserve it, but you're

still in the best position to fix it.

445

:

And guess what?

446

:

Fixing it doesn't require you

to be a different person or

447

:

someone you don't want to be.

448

:

It just requires you to

think, what do I like to do?

449

:

Like if, you know, and, and again, like

buying somebody's coffee, for example,

450

:

or I, you know, someone's like, I

really, gifts are my love language.

451

:

Like I like sending cute, I have a

friend who sends thank you cards or like

452

:

thinking of you cards for everything.

453

:

I find every time I have to write a card,

super tedious, but I got one from her

454

:

that just said, You looked awesome today.

455

:

She ran into me on the street.

456

:

We talked for five minutes.

457

:

She liked what I was wearing and she

went home and she wrote a card about it.

458

:

But she has a whole host of cards

that she loves to That's her thing.

459

:

So I just say find your

thing and then that's it.

460

:

You're all with it.

461

:

Julie: I'm a big card sender.

462

:

Um, probably cause I do so much

research into the average number

463

:

of emails that the corporate worker

gets every day, which is 129.

464

:

Um, and you know, Just nobody

gets good things in the mail.

465

:

It's a bill or it's, or it's, you know,

um, media mail or something like that.

466

:

So I'm very big on, on sending cards.

467

:

Alison: See?

468

:

And you're funny and

you're so that you're warm.

469

:

We've settled it.

470

:

It's done.

471

:

Debate over.

472

:

Julie: Done.

473

:

She leaves a warm person.

474

:

Alison: Julie is very warm.

475

:

Julie: Okay.

476

:

A question about self promotion.

477

:

I think self promotion

be difficult for anybody.

478

:

But I speak to a lot of introverts

who are trying to be better

479

:

networkers and you say you have an

introvert's guide to self promotion.

480

:

What is that and how can that help

introverts be likable badasses,

481

:

build, um, you know, promoters of

their, of their brand or of their,

482

:

their person or of their career?

483

:

Alison: Absolutely.

484

:

So I am a talkative introvert.

485

:

So I speak not just from science, but also

from personal experience of doing this.

486

:

All right.

487

:

So first is everybody, regardless of

whether they label themselves introvert

488

:

or extrovert, would serve themselves

well to push into their zone of

489

:

discomfort at times, just a little bit.

490

:

Don't need to be a fundamentally

different than who you are, but like,

491

:

how could I do a little bit more?

492

:

So, um, one, you know, easy

ways to meet more people.

493

:

I am.

494

:

A classic that my husband and I always

joke, he's in finance where he has

495

:

to go to a lot of events that have

like the big cocktail party before

496

:

them and the dinner where you sit

next to it and don't know anybody.

497

:

And he sends me a text and he says,

I'm in your version of hell right now.

498

:

You know, I've just talked

to all these people.

499

:

And so I'm the kind of person

who wants to withdraw from that.

500

:

Um, but I, what I do is say you

need to meet more people because

501

:

continuously meeting people is you

never know where the next person who's

502

:

going to build your status, the next

person who's going to help you out.

503

:

You never know where they come from

and I'll give you some crazy examples.

504

:

Um, and so what I say is give yourself

many goals that you can handle.

505

:

So for example, I cannot

handle the cocktail party.

506

:

That is just not going to be my thing,

but I'm going to walk around and I'm

507

:

going to Say hello to 10 people, either

10 people I already know, or 10 people

508

:

that I'm meeting for the first time.

509

:

And when I've hit those 10,

which I can probably do in 20

510

:

minutes or less, I'm out of there.

511

:

That's a much better use of your time

as an introvert than forcing yourself

512

:

to stand there the entire time and

talking to the one person you don't

513

:

know and complaining how you wish you

were in your room checking your email.

514

:

Secondly.

515

:

Um, uh, Um, Oh, and so I'll say

like some of my best other promoters

516

:

have come from random people.

517

:

I've met at the airport, including

recently when a woman asked me

518

:

to watch her stuff while she

went to the bathroom and I did.

519

:

And then when she came back, I saw

her flight was delayed on her phone.

520

:

So I asked her if we

were on the same flight.

521

:

No, but we but she lives in my

childhood hometown, Pittsburgh.

522

:

I start chatting with her.

523

:

Um, I Give her I have get I have

little, um, likeable, badass

524

:

luggage tags in my, um, my bag.

525

:

I give her one.

526

:

I'm like, Hey, here, this is for you.

527

:

Since you travel a lot, I leave

by the time I get to my gate.

528

:

She's looked me up on LinkedIn.

529

:

She's connected with me.

530

:

And she said, I really

like the work you're doing.

531

:

Um, And I think there's a lot of ways

that I could actually help you out.

532

:

And so we're meeting this week and

this was a flight like a week ago.

533

:

And so just a little bit of discomfort

of, yeah, I'll watch your stuff.

534

:

A little conversation

can, can be very helpful.

535

:

The second thing is you can do a lot of

your self promotion from behind a screen.

536

:

So it doesn't all have to be FaceTime.

537

:

Um, things like, um, I talk about how

to use your out of office message.

538

:

I'm away from my desk with more.

539

:

Right with more intention a lot of them

are just like i'm out until you know,

540

:

august 27th Um, if you need assistance

call this person well just with like a

541

:

couple little more pieces of information

Are you at an industry conference

542

:

right where you're learning something?

543

:

Are you traveling because um, you are

uh, Uh selling to a client are you on

544

:

vacation, but you can say something

funny about your your vacation And

545

:

I think nicole is great at this.

546

:

In fact, I don't know if you've

ever gotten her out of offices

547

:

but I Um, she said I read hers

and they're just hilarious.

548

:

So if you're a funny person, tell

your funny stories about your travel

549

:

snafus with your kids or whatever.

550

:

And so that's an example.

551

:

Um, sending emails that are update emails

about the work that you've done where

552

:

you compliment the great work of other

people who have also been part of it.

553

:

I promote myself while I'm

promoting other people.

554

:

I do it through an email.

555

:

No conversation needs to happen.

556

:

So using our, our, our virtual tools

and then social media, I would say

557

:

is, um, another one, which is that if

you are a person who spends any time

558

:

on social media, it is a great way.

559

:

to get your name and your ideas in

front of lots of people without really

560

:

having to have the one on one engagement

that introverts find really exhausting.

561

:

You can just put, if you're reading stuff

that's interesting, put value out there.

562

:

It's quick to do, it reaches a

lot of people even if you have

563

:

a small network, there's not a

lot of face to face interaction.

564

:

So these are the ways I start to, to help

people think about pushing just a little

565

:

beyond your comfort using virtual tools.

566

:

And then a third one, I'll,

I'll add it and then I'll.

567

:

I'll pause is, is, um, recruiting

other people to help us.

568

:

So self promotion is positive information

about me that originates with me.

569

:

And there's no getting around that because

if we Tell people nothing about ourselves.

570

:

If they never see us,

then we have no brand.

571

:

We have no existence.

572

:

It has to start with

something we've said, right?

573

:

Something they've heard about us.

574

:

And so we have to start it, but

other people can amplify it.

575

:

And that's one of the things I want

people to really understand is that,

576

:

like, I'll keep coming back to Nicole.

577

:

We're gonna tell her she was the

star of this, of this episode 200.

578

:

So when Nicole says something nice about

me, like, hey, I talked to Allison.

579

:

You would really enjoy Allison.

580

:

Keep in mind.

581

:

As the introvert, I didn't

have to do anything.

582

:

I was probably like sitting in

a room by myself with a book

583

:

and my status was being built.

584

:

And so if we can, um, use other people

to build our status for us, then that

585

:

can not only is it super efficient for

everybody, it's also super comfortable

586

:

for the introvert who doesn't want

to be out there telling their story.

587

:

Someone else is telling it, but one

of the, but we have to make it happen.

588

:

And one of the ways to make

that happen is for you.

589

:

Julie: Mm hmm,

590

:

Alison: a simple behavior that I give

to everybody is, if you did nothing

591

:

else in the world, that every time you

thought a great thought about somebody

592

:

else, you, you, you told somebody,

would benefit so much from that,

593

:

because we always want to reciprocate.

594

:

So when one person's going, when people

are going around saying good things about

595

:

me, I can't wait to find opportunities

to say good things about them.

596

:

So even as an introvert, it might be way

less uncomfortable for me to say, Oh, I

597

:

can say good things about other people.

598

:

That's not so draining.

599

:

It's just, I don't like

talking about myself.

600

:

So go do that.

601

:

Go tell everybody the great things

you believe about other people in your

602

:

network when it gets back to them.

603

:

Cause it will, they will look to

do those things for you, even if

604

:

you haven't asked them directly.

605

:

And so those are the kinds of tools that

I think that we all can benefit from.

606

:

But even if the idea of, Being

out there and talking to new

607

:

people is super unpleasant.

608

:

We have a lot of tools at our

disposal to make it feel comfortable.

609

:

Julie: Yeah, I think one of the great

places to do this is on LinkedIn.

610

:

We're all professionals.

611

:

We're all trying to build

a brand on LinkedIn.

612

:

And commenting, I, I mean, I'm so

grateful when, when I put up posts,

613

:

when people say this was helpful.

614

:

Oh, I love your videos or whatever,

you know, I'm so grateful.

615

:

so much.

616

:

That I constantly have to remind myself,

like, this feeling you're feeling, you

617

:

need to give it back to other people.

618

:

So when people are posting, and you

read their post, and it's helpful,

619

:

or it's funny, or it's anything,

it's an update, like, make sure

620

:

you are giving that feeling back.

621

:

Alison: That's right.

622

:

I always say that behind every post is

a person and the way you treat the post

623

:

is the way you are treating the person.

624

:

And so I, put thumbs up

and hearts on things.

625

:

It's so simple.

626

:

But even for those of us, like you and I,

who are experienced at doing this, and we

627

:

post all the time and we don't feel like

super vulnerable, but as soon as that

628

:

first ding comes through that someone

liked it, you're like, Oh, they liked it.

629

:

And so a hundred percent, it's

so easy to give that back.

630

:

And so, um, Dan Pink, who's a

brilliant writer, uh, you're right.

631

:

So, so Dan, so he was, I'm

in a book authors group.

632

:

He came and was talking.

633

:

Couple months back and one of

the things he said, which we

634

:

know is a psychological truth.

635

:

He said, stop thinking you're so unique.

636

:

If, if you're interested in

it, other people will be too.

637

:

If it hurts your feelings, it'll

probably hurt other people's feelings.

638

:

And so I think about that a lot.

639

:

Every time I have a moment where

someone does something and I think,

640

:

Oh wow, I really like them now.

641

:

I, as a psychologist, unpack it,

and I think, what did they just

642

:

do, and how can I replicate it?

643

:

So, one example is, a couple weeks ago,

my son, one of my, one of my kids, all

644

:

of them, but one of them was at a summer

camp, and he had had an injury, so I was

645

:

writing the camp director to make sure

his injury had healed enough that he

646

:

could go on this big backpacking trip.

647

:

And when they wrote back to say,

yes, it had, The camp director

648

:

said, by the way, your son has

been such a leader among his peers.

649

:

I have so enjoyed getting to know him.

650

:

He's just a tremendous asset to camp.

651

:

Like four sentences of

your son is awesome.

652

:

And I just pause for a moment and I'm

like, Oh, I really like this guy now.

653

:

I've never met him.

654

:

I know, I only know him by name, but I'm

like, Hmm, he complimented my kid, which

655

:

is even better than complimenting me.

656

:

And now I thought, you know what,

if an email came the next day that

657

:

the camp was doing fundraising.

658

:

I think I would have donated

more because of that email.

659

:

And so anytime something like that

happens where I have a positive reaction

660

:

to somebody or a negative reaction,

I pause and I unpack what it is.

661

:

And I think, Is that a, a, a tactic,

not an, an authentic tactic I could use.

662

:

Like, and I realized, yeah,

people love their kids.

663

:

And when, when someone's kid, you

know, I have a, a, a, there's a guy

664

:

who has done some work on my house

whose son is in the Olympics, right?

665

:

Or just finishing the Olympics.

666

:

Awesome.

667

:

You know, to take two minutes and

say, oh my God, I'm cheering you on.

668

:

This is amazing.

669

:

Like, you know, whatever it is.

670

:

I'm like, oh, I could use

that in an authentic way.

671

:

So that's what I would encourage.

672

:

Um.

673

:

people to do is like when you

get the good feeling of the

674

:

heart, oh, everyone gets that.

675

:

It's not just, I'm not, I'm not so unique.

676

:

And so if I, if that feels good for me

to get it, then that's my first clue

677

:

as to what kind of thing could I give.

678

:

Julie: Yeah.

679

:

And because you brought up your

kids, you, you have three children.

680

:

They're all named after

professional athletes.

681

:

What was the, it was there a

behavioral psychology behind

682

:

naming them after athletes?

683

:

Alison: There was not.

684

:

So, okay.

685

:

So my husband and I are big sports fans.

686

:

We, um, uh, were probably together.

687

:

Let me think about this.

688

:

We were together five years before

we got married and I think seven,

689

:

eight years before he had kids.

690

:

This conversation originated as

all child naming conversations do.

691

:

While we were drinking in a bar, we

were sitting there long before I was

692

:

even sure I was going to marry him.

693

:

So the conversation felt kind

of hypothetical and we were

694

:

talking about names for kids.

695

:

And I said, That all of the relatives

in my family that I like have horrible

696

:

names and the relatives that have decent

names I don't really like them that much.

697

:

I wouldn't name after them and he

was telling me the names in his

698

:

family I was like, nah, and I said,

oh something about athletes and

699

:

somehow Michael Jordan came up.

700

:

So my husband's from Chicago So

Jordan came up, and Jordan is

701

:

also a UNC obvious connection.

702

:

And I was like, I really

like the name Jordan.

703

:

And from this idea, we started

brainstorming and this bar, if we had

704

:

kids, what would be names of kids that

would have ties to his Chicago roots

705

:

that also were names that I liked.

706

:

And we came up with two of the three of

those kids names were decided, like five

707

:

to seven years before those kids existed.

708

:

So Jordan is my oldest and Peyton, my

son is my middle for Walter Payton.

709

:

And then I have a daughter named

Maddox, which is for Greg Maddox,

710

:

which we came up with later.

711

:

Um, and they also have Pittsburgh Steelers

middle names because I am from Pittsburgh.

712

:

And so I, um, wanted to do that.

713

:

My husband lobbied for a while

for Maddox, Maddie, we call her.

714

:

That her middle name to be Lemieux for

Mario Lemieux, which would be great.

715

:

And I said, I refuse to give a

girl a name that has two X's in it.

716

:

Like, I don't know if they teach

cursive anymore, but like, we have

717

:

to write the X in cursive, right?

718

:

No one needs that.

719

:

I was like, one X per

name, I think is plenty.

720

:

Anyway, um, So that's how we did it

721

:

Julie: That's so funny.

722

:

We don't have kids, but, there's

a little bit of a connection here.

723

:

Our dog, her name is Maddie.

724

:

She was nine weeks old and we

rescued her from Pennsylvania.

725

:

There was a beautiful breeder who

had taken her mother pregnant out

726

:

of a very bad situation and welled

to the mom and she had nine kids.

727

:

And.

728

:

So all of the dogs were

named after Steelers players.

729

:

And so we immediately changed

her name from Nick to Maddie.

730

:

We're like, this can't

happen, this can't stand.

731

:

So, yeah.

732

:

Alison: Yes.

733

:

But that is how we, yeah,

ended up with, with all of it.

734

:

And so, and here's the funny

part about that, um, is that when

735

:

we did that, we lived in North

Carolina with no expectation.

736

:

We would be back in Chicago,

but we do live in Chicago now.

737

:

I'm, and I have been remote before

remote was cool, but, um, when we

738

:

moved back and at the time, our dog

who has now died, but was living at

739

:

the time, Wrigley for Wrigley field.

740

:

And I said, now we look

like lunatics because now.

741

:

It's cute when you live in North

Carolina and you have kids named after

742

:

things in Chicago, but when you live

in Chicago and you're like, my kids

743

:

are Jordan, Peyton, and Maddox, and

I have a dog named Wrigley, it just

744

:

looks a little bit too much city love.

745

:

But I will tell you, my oldest

is 15, my youngest is nine.

746

:

In all those years, not one

person has ever put it together.

747

:

Not one.

748

:

Julie: My, I have a very good friend

who lives, she lives in Villa Park

749

:

now, but she was living in downtown

Chicago and her dog, who has since

750

:

passed away, was named Wrigley.

751

:

Alison: Yeah.

752

:

It's very common.

753

:

Wrigley's, Addison's,

there's a lot of them.

754

:

Julie: Yeah.

755

:

Um, friends.

756

:

Oh, Alison, thank you so much.

757

:

Likeable Badass, which is a playbook

for winning the status game is available

758

:

everywhere books are sold September 3rd,

759

:

Alison: That's right.

760

:

Julie: September 3rd.

761

:

So run out, get yourself a copy, buy it

for someone else, do that kind thing and

762

:

buy that copy for someone else because

five years from now, you'll be the same

763

:

person you are today, except for the

people you meet and the books you read.

764

:

Thank you so much for being here today.

765

:

Alison: Thank you.

766

:

I could talk to you forever.

767

:

You're amazing.

768

:

Julie: Oh, thanks.

769

:

Big shout out to Nicole Kaleel

for making this introduction.

770

:

I've said it before,

and I'll say it again.

771

:

The people you meet will change

your life and networking is

772

:

how you meet those people.

773

:

Having people in your network who

are not intimidated by your success,

774

:

who continue to make amazing

connections for you and say your

775

:

name and rooms full of opportunity.

776

:

That is the goal.

777

:

That is what I am trying to teach.

778

:

Every time I get on the stage

or behind this microphone.

779

:

I want to go back to something

Alison said in that interview.

780

:

So much of our ability to live

the life we want is working

781

:

with and through other people.

782

:

So.

783

:

If those people don't value us,

then all those things get harder

784

:

and life gets more miserable.

785

:

She also echoed something

I've said many times before.

786

:

You need to meet more people continuously

because the next person who's going

787

:

to build your status or the next

person who is going to help you out.

788

:

You never know where they could come from.

789

:

There were so many amazing things

that she said in this interview.

790

:

That we should be looking for ways to

say great things about other people.

791

:

Not just because they are true,

but because that good energy

792

:

will be reciprocated back to us.

793

:

And also to think about the three

characteristics you want to be known for.

794

:

And are you living a life in

which that is how people would

795

:

describe you if you weren't there?

796

:

For me the most significant takeaway

was the conversation about being

797

:

capable and caring and realizing

that humor is a cohesive act.

798

:

It can be what makes you a warm person?

799

:

Just a few days after this talk

with Alison, a friend of mine, who's

800

:

going through a really, really tough

time, came to visit for the day.

801

:

Chris.

802

:

And I spent the day with them at

the beach, digging for clams in the

803

:

morning and floating on inner tubes

with beers in hand in the afternoon.

804

:

And then later that day, making homemade

clam chowder from our hall that morning.

805

:

We laughed the entire day.

806

:

By the end of it.

807

:

He thanked us seeing it

was exactly what he needed.

808

:

See.

809

:

That's my kind of warmth.

810

:

The kind that makes you spit out your

beer, laughing, the guy that makes your

811

:

cheeks ache from smiling and the kind

that makes you feel truly cared for.

812

:

And I feel like I just discovered that

this week in this conversation, So

813

:

run out and get your copy of likable.

814

:

Bad-ass that hits

bookshelves on September 3rd.

815

:

All right friends.

816

:

Onto the drink of the week,

which is the queen and cocktail.

817

:

Why this one you ask?

818

:

Well, let me tell you, queen Anne, right?

819

:

She's a freaking queen of

England, Scotland and Ireland.

820

:

We're talking March 8th, 1702,

which by the way, fun fact later

821

:

becomes international women's day.

822

:

And my birthday coincidence, I think not.

823

:

Then in 1707, she's like, let me

smash England and Scotland together.

824

:

And bam she's queen of great Britain to.

825

:

What a total bad-ass.

826

:

And apparently legend has it.

827

:

This was her drink of choice.

828

:

I have no idea if this is actually

true, but Hey, it's a good story.

829

:

So let's roll with it.

830

:

Here's what you're going to need.

831

:

One and a half ounces of rye three-fourths

ounce of vermouth, three fourths,

832

:

ounce of pineapple juice and a dash

of bitters combine all ingredients

833

:

together in a cocktail shaker with ice,

and then strain and tour martini glass.

834

:

All right friends.

835

:

I hope you enjoyed this special

bonus episode of the podcast.

836

:

Be sure to check back in as I will be

offering more bonus episodes in the future

837

:

before I get to regular programming.

838

:

If you liked what you heard

today, please leave a review

839

:

and subscribe to the podcast.

840

:

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

841

:

If you want more, Julie Brown that's me.

842

:

You can find my book.

843

:

This shit works on Amazon

or Barnes and noble.

844

:

And you can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

845

:

You can follow me or you

can reach out and connect.

846

:

If you reach out and connect, just

let me know where you found me.

847

:

I'm Julie Brown underscore BD

on the Instagram, or you can

848

:

just pop on over to my website.

849

:

Julie Brown bd.com until

next time, whenever that is.

850

:

Cheers.

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About the Podcast

This Shit Works
The people you meet can 100% Change Your Life! Networking is how you meet those people. Which sucks because you hate networking, you think you're bad at networking, and you certainly don’t have time to network. Bullshit! Welcome to This Shit Works, a weekly podcast hosted by entrepreneur, CEO, public speaker, author, business development strategist and networking coach Julie Brown. Just don’t call her Downtown Julie Brown - she doesn’t like that.

Each week Julie will bring to you her no nonsense tips, tricks and conversations around networking your way to more friends, more adventures and way more success!
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