Episode 167
How to Create Psychologically Safe Workplaces with Mark Graban
In 2019 Google conducted an internal study to find out what makes an effective team.
The study showed that the #1 factor for effective teams was the presence of psychological safety. Listen in as I talk with speaker and author Mark Graban about the 4 stages of psychological safety as well as the power of making mistakes.
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Julie Brown:
Mark Graban
Transcript
In 2019, Google
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
conducted an internal study to find
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:out what makes an effective team.
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:They called the study Project Aristotle,
after the renowned ancient Greek
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:philosopher who greatly influenced the
world of philosophy, science, and logic.
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:The study uncovered the five
elements that make a great team.
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:Welcome to episode 167 of the
Shitworks, a podcast dedicated to
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:all things networking, relationship
building, and business development.
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:I'm your host, Julie Brown.
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:Speaker, author, and networking coach,
and today, I am joined by author, speaker,
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:and consultant, Mark Graben, whose
latest book, The Mistakes That Make Us,
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:Cultivating a Culture of Learning and
Innovation, delves deep into the most
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:important element uncovered in that study.
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:So, what is that number one element?
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:Well, why don't I give you all five
of them, and then you can see how
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:important number one really is,
and you may be surprised by it.
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:Coming in at number five was impact.
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:Number four is meaning, number three
is structure and clarity, number
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:two is dependability, and the number
one element is psychological safety.
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:Meaning, team members feel safe
enough to take interpersonal risks.
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:When teams promote psychological
safety, there is a free flow of ideas
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:which can lead to better outcomes.
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:You can ask for help without
fear of retribution or adverse
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:impact to your reputation.
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:Team members feel comfortable asking
questions and sharing opinions,
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:which can lead to healthy debate,
and that helps teams thrive.
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:When we are psychologically safe, we
aren't afraid to ask questions or make
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:mistakes because we know those two things
are what drive change and innovation.
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:And there's no better person to
walk us through how we can create
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:psychological safety within our
teams and in our offices than Mark.
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:So Mark, welcome to the podcast.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Julie, thanks.
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:Thanks for having me.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:This subject of psychological safety
might be new to a lot of people who
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:aren't, you know, studying teams and
companies the way we do, so how do you
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:start researching it and writing about it?
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, um, I
mean, I first started learning about it.
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:I mean, I went and well, maybe first first
I've lived through workplaces that had low
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:levels of psychological safety or where
at least I did not feel psychologically
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:safe to use my voice and to speak up.
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:And I've been part of teams
where thankfully I did have that
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:feeling of psychological safety.
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:Um, so I think some of my learning
journey Really started with, um, you
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:know, the work of people that, that
I cite in, in my book and otherwise,
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:um, Amy Edmondson professor from
Harvard business school, um, didn't
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:invent the term psychological safety,
but arguably she really popularized
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:it in a broader business sense.
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:Um, one of her books is, uh, is
called the fearless organization,
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:which I highly recommend.
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:And then, uh, another
researcher and author.
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:Timothy Clark, author of a
great book called The Four
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:Stages of Psychological Safety.
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:I had a chance to do some formal
training and certification
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:through Tim and his organization.
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:So, you know, in the context of my
book, like you said, in your summary
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:of this, one of the things people,
one of the things, areas we hoped
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:people would feel safe to speak up
about is mistakes, admitting their
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:own mistakes, talking about the risk.
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:of mistakes not yet made.
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:And if they don't feel safe individually
in a particular situation to speak up,
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:we're going to have more mistakes and
that's going to be bad for the people
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:involved and the organization or company.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: So
you just made a good point there.
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:We would hope, knowing that
We learn from our mistakes and
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:that we need to raise red flags.
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:, when we see that something might be
a miss, we would hope that that's the
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:culture we have in our companies, but we
also have grown up in a very much a, you
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:know, fake it till you make it don't admit
you're wrong, you know, kind of culture,
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:and that's at odds with creating safe.
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:Spaces within our companies.
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:So how, in your opinion, in your
professional opinion, in your expert
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:opinion, where do companies start
to begin creating this psychological
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:safety, this space within companies
that says, no, in this company, we,
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:we make mistakes and we ask questions
and it will not affect you and no one
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:will think you're dumb, you know, how
do we begin creating that environment?
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Leaders
thankfully can take actions to create
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:or cultivate or build or nurture
the environment in which people can
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:decide, yes, it's safe or safe enough.
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:For me to speak up.
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:So I kind of I'll check myself.
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:I'm using the word hope
like in an organization.
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:Hope is not a culture building
strategy as an outside observer
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:of people in their workplace.
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:I would say, I hope you Are fortunate
enough to work in a team and with
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:the leader and with colleagues where
you do feel safe So in a team in an
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:organization leaders can absolutely
Take action to create the conditions
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:for psychological safety So first off
we talk about shit that doesn't work
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:the shit the shit that does is This is
a safe space I want you to feel safe.
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:I'm like, okay.
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:Well that might be aspirational.
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:It absolutely Might not be true Right.
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:So don't lecture people around like,
well, you should feel safe or, you know,
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:to couch it in terms of, you know, being
courageous or, or, or high character
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:of like, well, good people speak up
and you should speak up the two things
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:leaders can do the shit that works is
first off, and I'll cite Tim Clark for
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:for stating it this way, modeling the
behaviors you want to see when leaders
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:are willing to go first and admit it.
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:I was wrong.
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:I made a mistake.
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:I could, I have an idea
and I could be wrong.
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:So let's go test that idea.
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:That works.
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:Then secondly, when others follow
your lead, you have to reward those
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:behaviors, not just tolerate, but
more actively and more positively
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:reward people for speaking up.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: I love
that you said that the shit that
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:doesn't work is saying this is a safe
space because that's a platitude.
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:You know, like that is like saying this
is a safe make space doesn't make it so,
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Right.
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:Absolutely.
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:And I mean, and you can go and
survey teams qualitatively and
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:quantitatively, and you may have a team.
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:of let's say seven people
where they all feel a high
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:degree of psychological safety.
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:So you might say, okay, well,
that team has this generally high
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:sense of psychological safety.
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:You add an eighth person to that team.
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:And I've seen this happen in
a tech company, a software
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:company, I'm involved in Kinexus.
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:You hire somebody in who has
experience at other companies.
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:where it was not psychologically
safe, and they learned all of these
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:unfortunate lessons around protecting
themselves and not speaking up.
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:You, you can't tell them to flip a light
switch and say, well, this is safe.
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:You should instantly start
behaving differently.
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:Now that eighth person, that new
person to the team may come around
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:to seeing in that environment
based on how people are behaving.
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:Okay.
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:I I'm going to try, I'm going to start
speaking up and when that's rewarded,
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:they can come around, but it's not,
it's not like flipping a switch.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
When you say reward the action,
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:what does that look like?
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:Mm-hmm.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
I can start off first off by,
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:giving a sincere, thank you.
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:You know, thank you for bringing that
to our attention and then taking steps.
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:That are constructive, you know,
I mean, and, and look, you know,
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:when people make a mistake.
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:They feel bad about it.
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:You know, you don't have to pile on
or, chastise them or, um, yell at them.
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:Um, you know, sometimes it's
actually quite the opposite.
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:You've got to check and say, let's say
if you had admitted a mistake, you know,
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:the check in Julie, how are you doing?
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:Are you feeling okay?
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:Like it might not be.
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:The appropriate time to dig in to,
uh, analysis and understand it.
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:Like, yeah, sometimes you have
to let somebody recover a little
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:bit and, and, and reassure them.
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:I know you didn't mean to do that, you
know, and then when the timing is right,
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:hopefully sooner than later, but, but
when the people involved feel ready
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:for it, then it's a problem solving,
well, why did that mistake occur?
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:What do we learn from it?
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:What can we put in place?
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:systemically to prevent
a repeat of the mistake.
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:And, you know, a pro tip here.
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:Um, what doesn't work is telling people,
well, hey, be more careful next time.
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:Like you can try that, but
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
it doesn't work.
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:So, so I think, you know, a little bit
of kindness, a little bit of empathy,
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:a lot of constructive followup on the
mistake where we can replace punishment.
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:With learning and growth.
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:And I, I hear people sometimes
say things like, well, we have to
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:punish people for making mistakes.
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:I'm like, we don't have to, that's a
choice we can choose a different path
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:and companies that are choosing that
different path, find more innovation,
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:more improvement, more success.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:I think I read an article that
you had written and in it you.
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:And I'm going to paraphrase here
because, you know, I'm trying to put a
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:whole article into this one question.
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:You said a lot of leaders are
frustrated with employees not being
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:engaged or not submitting ideas and
that this is because most companies
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:have two key cultural factors that
keep employees from speaking up.
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:And those two key cultural
factors are fear and futility.
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:What do you mean by that?
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, I
mean, well, you know, for one, I would
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:say, , stop blaming employees for quote,
unquote, being disengaged, like, you
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:know, engage as an active verb,, you
need to engage your employees actively
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:for them to be engaged for them.
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:To even have a chance of speaking
up and using their voice.
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:Um, I'll credit, like, you know,
I'm not the PhD researcher,
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:but I like connecting dots.
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:So I'm going to credit another professor,
Ethan Burris from the University of Texas
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:at Austin in the business school there.
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:This is his research where he
surveyed people very broadly around
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:what are the top two reasons people
choose to not use their voice.
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:The second highest rank if
we're playing Family Feud here.
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:Number two on the board is fear.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah,
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
Let me see fear.
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:Well, I don't want to see
fear, but okay, it's up there.
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:Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
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:Number two on the board, fear.
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:Surprising to me, and I, I'd always,
I've always been aware of the fear
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:factor and trying to help reduce
that or not wanting to work in an
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:environment with the fear factor.
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:Number one on the board is
actually a different F word.
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:So it's if we've eliminated the
fear factor, we can do things
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:to build psychological safety.
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:That's like the first PS.
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:But then if people speak up about mistakes
or problems or ideas and nothing happens.
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:People will then say things like, yeah,
I, I don't get in trouble for speaking up.
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:It's just not worth the effort.
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:I speak up and nothing happens.
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:So they stop that's the futility factor.
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:And that's where I, the thing I've,
I've pieced together, you know, these
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:two PSs, not just psychological safety,
but also effective problem solving.
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:And I've seen a lot of organizations
that will train people to the ends
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:of the earth on problem solving.
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:And then ask, well, why aren't
people using those problem
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:solving tools that we taught them?
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:It's probably a lack of
psychological safety.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Do you
know, in your research, if, if there's
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:a gender difference in psychological
safety, is one gender more apt to not
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:ask questions, not feel psychologically
safe,, in a work environment, or is
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:it pretty much equal across the board?
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
I, I don't have data.
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:I'd be really curious, like
what a broad range of survey
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:data,, would say about that.
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:I, I think, I mean, one, one dynamic and
something I've talked with others about,
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:and they've brought up as an issue.
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:I mean, look, you know, I'm,
I, I, I, in a workplace or even
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:here, I come from a place, with
a, you know, a lot of privilege.
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:I'm a middle age, straight white guy.
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:Like I have no, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, you know, you know, in, in some
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:ways maybe, um, because of some of that
privilege, like, well, maybe I don't
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:get punished as much, but the one thing
I've, I've like, especially talked to
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:some black colleagues about, uh, Is, the
thing they fear that I don't have to think
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:about is, you know, if let's say a black
woman's friend of mine and a colleague
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:that fear of, well, if I admit a mistake,
that's going to reflect badly on my
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:other black colleagues or on other women.
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:I mean, I think there's a
really interesting perspective
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:to think about there.
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:We would want everyone hopefully to
feel the same level of psychological
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:safety so that they can just as actively
and equally participate in workplace
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:discussions and, you know, but I mean, I
think those are things, you know, if we're
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:in a diverse team, we can't assume For a
whole bunch of reasons that that everyone
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:feels the same sense of psychological
safety that that I might feel or that
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:What do you what do you think?
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Well,
you know, as I was coming up with the
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:question, which just happened right
now, I was thinking, originally, when
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:I asked the question, I was like, women
would definitely not want to be seen.
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:We've already had to work so, we're
not even equal, in where we are in
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:leadership, in board positions, in
pay, so why would we admit mistakes,
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:because, like, we're already still
not equal, um, on so many levels.
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:But then I flipped it around
and I said,, for men, there's
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:this, you always got to be right.
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:You got to be the big guy, you know, like
kind of persona in companies as well.
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:That would make it really difficult
for them to say, Hey, I fucked
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:up, so I don't, I think it's an
interesting question or I'd love
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:to see if there was research on it.
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:And I think it's so important.
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:I just, you know, the
listeners of this podcast.
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:No, I just wrote a new keynote keynote
on employee retention and happiness.
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:And, you know, as we face, you
know, declining birthrate since
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:1970, millennials have the lowest
birthrate of any generation ever.
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:As we get to the point where We're
already there where it's really hard to
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:hire, but it's only going to get worse.
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:It's only going to get harder.
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:And we as Americans aren't making enough
people to like fill the workforce.
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:We're just not, and we're
going to have to rely on.
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:You know, people coming into the
United States,, as immigrants to fill
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:out the workforce, and it's going
to be really, really important that
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:we create safe environments for them
to come and bring their cultures and
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:learn, um, you know, there's going
to be some sort of language barriers,
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:English as second languages is going
to be really hard communication wise.
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:So I think it's It is so important
that companies start figuring out
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:this problem of psychological safety.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, yeah.
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:And pointing back to Tim
Clark's four stages framework.
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:One thing I really love about that
framework is, you know, we can kind
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:of break down and look at stages.
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:Psychological safety is not a yes, no.
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:You know, zero one.
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:Uh, we have psychological safety.
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:There are degrees of this feeling.
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:How safe does an individual feel?
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:But these four stages to
run through real quick.
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:Stage one, the foundation is inclusion
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Do you
feel included, accepted, and respected?
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:Without that, it's hard to do much else.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Right.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
Stage two is learner safety.
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:Do I feel safe to learn?
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:Do I feel safe to ask questions?
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:Do I feel safe to say, I don't know?
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:The, the inability to say that in
healthcare leads to a lot of mistakes
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:because people feel ashamed or get
shamed for asking the question.
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:So then they go and do their
best and then a mistake occurs.
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:Um, stage three.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yep.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
is contributor safety.
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:Do you feel safe to contribute
to the best of your ability?
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:And then stage four, really
the pinnacle that we're aiming
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:for is a challenger safety.
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:Like, do I feel safe to challenge
the status quo in different ways?
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:So, um, in, in different ways, yes.
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:To start with, uh, inclusion, uh,
acceptance and respect and, you know, it,
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:it, with these pressures around, hiring
and retention, that it's a, really,
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:it's a key to retention when people are
working in this highly engaged environment
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:where they feel psychologically safe.
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:Those people are going to want to stay
and they're going to be able to thrive.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:And they're going to recruit.
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:I mean, we know that most
hiring comes from networking.
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:So you're making your employees feel
like this is the company to work at
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:and they're going to help you recruit
and fill out your workforce for sure.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yes,
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: So your
book, The Mistakes That Make Us,
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:it It came out of your podcast.
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:You have a podcast called My
Favorite Mistake, which delves
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:into game changing mistakes made
by industry leaders, like big name
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:people and the mistakes they made.
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:What was one of your favorite
mistakes that you heard a guest share?
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678: there's,
I mean, there's so many great stories
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:and you know, it's, it's, what do
we learn from hearing these stories?
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:So, you know, one, you, you might hear
somebody admit a mistake and say, oh,
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:okay, that applies to me and my work.
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:I know now to not make that mistake.
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:Like those opportunities are maybe
fairly rare, but I think what's more
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:powerful is just the example that's at.
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:company founders, CEOs,
leaders, entertainers, retired
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:pro athletes, comedians.
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:But to answer your question, I think,
you know, two people come to mind.
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:Members of U.
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:S.
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:House of Representatives.
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:Episode 2, Will Hurd, Republican
from Texas, who was in, he had
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:already decided at that point he
wasn't running for re election, so
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:he had a couple of months to go.
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:And then a couple of months back, Adam
Smith, a Democrat from Washington,
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:and, you know, they both commented
about I think it is kind of unusual.
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:You know, if a politician admits a
mistake, they get, they get hit with
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:all kinds of attacks and labels.
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:You're a flip flopper.
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:And
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
They both told stories, , from,
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:their first ever election.
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:Um, well heard story, like in
particular, he was running in
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:the Republican primary in 2010.
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:He got the most votes in the
primary, but he didn't get 50%.
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:So it went to a runoff.
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:Yeah.
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:And he owned up to and he admitted
that he did not listen to the
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:advice of his political consultants.
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:He didn't blame them for not
being convincing or something.
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:He continued the same strategy.
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:He didn't treat the runoff as
being different and he lost.
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:And the fact that he could admit that.
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:And then this one line
is burned into my memory.
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:I mean, we think about mistakes
and we discover them in hindsight.
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:He said, Well, if I had known it was
a mistake, I wouldn't have done it.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: True.
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:I always say, you can't learn from
your mistakes if you don't make any,
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
that's, that's true too.
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:A lot of entrepreneurs talk about that.
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:If, you know, if you're never
making mistakes, you're probably
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:not pushing the boundaries of
entrepreneurship or innovation,
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:but you know, at the same time.
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:Um, we don't we don't want
huge catastrophic failures.
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:So I think the best stories come from
making a mistake at a small scale, like
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:as an entrepreneur, and then learning
and adjusting and using small mistakes
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:to prevent big failures will hurt.
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:Let's say if he had gotten polling
data before that final runoff election,
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:and maybe he could have discovered
before it actually went to the voters,
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:maybe he could have made adjustments.
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:Now, Um, to his credit, he ran again four
years later, found himself in that exact
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:same situation, and this time he listened.
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:And that time, that time he won.
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:So I love stories like that from
the podcast and into the book.
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:There's sort of the, the redemption
story of celebrating the learning
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:and the growth and the development
that comes from, making mistakes.
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:And, I think, the people on the
podcast remind us, look, you know,
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:we all, we all make mistakes,
so let's, let's learn and grow.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Did
anybody ever, I'm really curious if
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:anybody ever came on and was like,
this mistake was a shit sandwich,
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:and like nothing good came out of it.
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:It was just a mistake.
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:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
Well, yes, that's funny.
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:I mean, um, usually, you know, I
mean, you know, we do a pre call
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:and people have a chance to reflect.
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:, usually people are telling stories
that happened long enough ago.
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:They've had time to kind of
figure out what the lesson
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:or the moral of the story is.
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:Um, I mean, you know, it may
be at a minimum, the positive
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:is like, well, I learned not to
make that exact mistake again.
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:You know, but there are so many people
have come on the show and talked about,
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:their first attempt at a business failed,
went out of business, went bankrupt.
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:They learned from that and succeeded the
second time, either in version two of that
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:same type of business or in a different
business, and that's where I think, you
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:know, um, people, people find a way,
like, I think pretty authentically to say,
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:yeah, there, there, there were positives.
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:It was painful at the moment,
but it became positive.
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:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
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:So we have this rule.
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:I mean, you're a professional speaker
as well, and I don't know if you've
400
:heard this rule, but we have this rule
in professional speaking where you never
401
:tell a story you're still going through.
402
:Like, you never tell a story until
you are completely on the other
403
:side of it, because you just can't.
404
:Number one, you'll be
too emotional about it.
405
:You won't have all of the lessons learned.
406
:It's not a good story if
you're in the middle of it.
407
:So
408
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, but
409
:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
probably the same with mistakes.
410
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: well,
and the other thing I've learned
411
:is you don't want to ever surprise
somebody with that question.
412
:And, you know, there were a couple of
times early on where, um, you know,
413
:let's say the guest was being booked
through a third party, like a PR firm
414
:and communication didn't really get
back to the guest for whatever reason.
415
:And they didn't know, they thought they
were just going to show up and answer
416
:the same that they like to answer.
417
:And like, where's the fun in that?
418
:So you've got to give people some time to
think about and reflect because deciding
419
:what's a favorite, you know, that's very
subjective and people do need some time
420
:to, like, it's not something you can come
up with off the top of your head probably.
421
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
422
:So in my research of you, because
everybody knows I research every guest
423
:ad nauseum, I would be remiss if I didn't
mention that you're also a lean expert.
424
:You work in healthcare a lot
with, um, as a lean expert, but
425
:you have a podcast called it.
426
:lean whiskey.
427
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah.
428
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: And I don't
know if you know this about me, but I'm
429
:a huge bourbon, whiskey, rye fanatic.
430
:Um, so completely off topic, I would
love to just ask you what your favorite,
431
:whiskey, rye, bourbon, scotch, whatever
it is, what is your favorite one?
432
:Um, I have a favorite one as well.
433
:I actually have two favorites, but
434
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, I see.
435
:I don't, I don't know if I would,
if I had done more research on
436
:you and your background, Julie,
if I could have found this out.
437
:So I'm glad you shared that with me.
438
:yeah, so lean whiskey is a podcast.
439
:In fact, I'm going to record an
episode, uh, this afternoon with
440
:my usual cohost, Jamie flinchbaugh.
441
:We both do work around this quote
unquote lean management, , philosophy.
442
:And, in the lean whiskey podcast, we
kind of combine Conversation on both.
443
:So it's hard to answer your question
though, because like there are
444
:some people and, and, and, you
know, Hey, drink what you like.
445
:There are some people who say
that's my favorite and that's what
446
:I all, that's what I like to drink.
447
:And like, I like trying new, whiskeys.
448
:I have certain go tos I'll go back
to, but like, depending on the mood,
449
:I'll drink bourbon or rye or Scotch.
450
:Japanese whiskey is a
category that I really love.
451
:Um, there are some Irish whiskeys.
452
:That, um, I really like and really enjoy.
453
:So, um, boy, how to answer
that question of a favorite.
454
:Well, let me, let me, let me, maybe
you, you can ask a tough follow up
455
:question if I'm weaseling out of it
here, because, you know, look, it's
456
:your show, so it's not off topic.
457
:You asked, but there are two
distilleries that, are mentioned and
458
:featured in the book, the mistakes
that make us one is a Texas distillery.
459
:called Garrison Brothers that
has a great culture of owning up
460
:to and learning from mistakes.
461
:And that story is told in the book.
462
:And I do love, their bourbons.
463
:And to some people that sounds like
a mistake, but actually no, you can
464
:make bourbon outside of Kentucky.
465
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Mmm.
466
:Can you call it bourbon though?
467
:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
you can't, that's, that is a,
468
:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
It's the mash makeup, right?
469
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, there
are a number of criteria, but it's a U.
470
:S.
471
:federal national designation.
472
:So you could follow all of the
same rules and make a corn whiskey
473
:in another country, but you might
have to label it grain whiskey.
474
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.
475
:And who wants to drink that?
476
:That doesn't sound
477
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: drink,
you couldn't call it bourbon.
478
:Um, so Garrison Brothers and then,
and they've been around for about 15
479
:years, and they've won a lot of awards.
480
:And then there's a friend of
mine who's a former Toyota guy.
481
:So here's the overlap of this lean.
482
:Manufacturing lean management approach.
483
:Um, he worked for Toyota a long time.
484
:He went, and traveled the
world as a consultant.
485
:And he got tired of that.
486
:He has a startup bourbon distillery and by
startup, like they've, you know, they're,
487
:they've been going, I think seven or eight
years, Glen's Creek distilling, where he's
488
:brought that Toyota mindset about learning
from mistakes into his distillery.
489
:It's very small scale production,
but, he's starting to win some
490
:awards and he's bringing that.
491
:Kind of problem solving
mindset from Toyota.
492
:And I think very intuitively, you know,
he's got a small team, but I mean, you
493
:know, it's, it's definitely, he's the type
of leader that would not, uh, react badly,
494
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Mm hmm.
495
:audioMarkGraban11251411678:
punitively to a mistake and
496
:he'll admit his own mistakes.
497
:So there's that leadership.
498
:Behavior and pattern.
499
:That's really good.
500
:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
This is so great.
501
:I'm so glad you came.
502
:, Mark's new book.
503
:The mistakes that make us cultivating a
culture of learning and innovation can
504
:be found on Amazon and Barnes and Noble,
any place else that it can be found.
505
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: um,
can be found on Apple books.
506
:Uh, it's available, um,
you know, print editions.
507
:Yeah.
508
:Ebooks, audiobook is available
through Audible, Amazon and Apple.
509
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Oh, perfect.
510
:And then for information about you,
about your speaking and your coaching,
511
:they can just go to markgraben.
512
:com, right?
513
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: They can go
there or they can go to mistakesbook.
514
:com.
515
:If people want to order a signed copy
or if they want to do a bulk order
516
:for their team, they can do that.
517
:And they can actually, they can
also download a free preview
518
:of the book at mistakesbook.
519
:com.
520
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: And a lot of
people on, who listen to this podcast,
521
:because I grew up in the architecture,
engineering, and construction
522
:industry, which is a very lean, heavy
industry, check out Lean Whiskey.
523
:After the, you know, listen
to this podcast first, and
524
:then check out Lean Whiskey.
525
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Keep listening
to Julie's podcast and um, yeah, lean
526
:whiskey and you'll appreciate this.
527
:Julie is a whiskey fan of all types.
528
:People can either go, they can go
to lean whiskey dot com, whether
529
:they spell whiskey K E Y or K Y
530
:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
I spell it E Y.
531
:I always default to E Y.
532
:Yeah.
533
:All right.
534
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: the,
that's the American spelling
535
:audioJulieBrown21251411678: Oh, is it?
536
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Generally.
537
:Yeah.
538
:audioJulieBrown21251411678:
thanks so much for being here.
539
:This was great.
540
:audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah.
541
:Thank you, Julie.
542
:I appreciate the opportunity to
be here and for your questions
543
:and this has been a lot of fun.
544
:So, thanks.
545
:Hey, so I had a little bit of a connection
issue during this recording, um,
546
:which I'm sure you might have noticed.
547
:And I'm sorry.
548
:I've all of the things I can control.
549
:The fickleness of my internet
connection is not one of them.
550
:I could.
551
:Could control on this particular day.
552
:One thing that might have dropped out in
the recording was when mark was talking
553
:about, he said the shit that doesn't
work is saying, this is a safe space.
554
:And that's because someone
else saying it doesn't make it.
555
:So.
556
:You know, the only person
who can determine if they
557
:feel safe, is that person.
558
:So.
559
:I think we should.
560
:I try to not see those words
because it doesn't make it.
561
:So also something that mark mentioned
was that in order to start creating
562
:psychologically safe places,
it has to start from the top.
563
:You know, if your company's leadership
and C-suite are not on board.
564
:With what it takes to create work
environments, where we are allowed
565
:to make mistakes, where we are
allowed to challenge the status
566
:quo, where we are allowed to have
healthy and respectful debates.
567
:Then it just won't happen.
568
:We also need to realize that
psychological safety is not a yes or
569
:a no, there are degrees to it, and it
takes time to build up to feeling safe.
570
:Sadly.
571
:I think we all know what it's like
to work in an environment where we
572
:aren't comfortable asking questions
where we aren't comfortable making
573
:mistakes, voicing opinions, but.
574
:Like I mentioned in the interview.
575
:You know, if companies expect
to retain workers, especially
576
:now when the average tenure at a
company is just shy of three years.
577
:The, we need to build environments
where employees thrive and
578
:they don't want to leave.
579
:Okay.
580
:Oh, okay.
581
:I'm super excited.
582
:So onto the drink of the week, which I had
to feed her a bourbon cocktail because of
583
:mine and Mark's mutual love of this stuff.
584
:And I do love this cocktail.
585
:And I've had it multiple times,
but up until featuring it on
586
:the podcast, I'd actually never
really done any research into it.
587
:So, I didn't know where
it was created, so, okay.
588
:The drink is called the paper plane.
589
:And it features bourbon, Aperol
and MRO, and was created in
590
:2007 by bartender, Sam Ross.
591
:He later started making it at the famous
milk and honey bar in New York city.
592
:Now.
593
:This cocktail is a spin on the
classic cocktail, the last word
594
:and features equal parts of those
three ingredients that I mentioned.
595
:Um, The cocktail is named after
the Mia song, paper planes, which
596
:Sam Ross says he listened to
while he was creating the drink.
597
:And now I love this cocktail even
more because I, I love this song.
598
:It's literally 14 years old and
I still listen to it when I'm
599
:running, because I love it so much.
600
:Um, so if you don't know what the, what
this song is, along with the link to the
601
:cocktail, I'm gonna put a link to that
video for this song, paper planes in the
602
:show notes, in case you've never heard it.
603
:Okay.
604
:So here's what you're going
to need for the paper.
605
:Plane cocktail.
606
:One ounce of bourbon whiskey.
607
:One ounce of Aperol, one
ounce of , Italian tomorrow.
608
:Um, and one ounce of fresh lemon juice.
609
:And if you want a garnish it, which it
looks really cool with the garnish, you're
610
:going to need a lemon peel for garnish.
611
:So what you're going to do is
add the bourbon appro Amar.
612
:MRO and lemon juice to a cocktail shaker.
613
:Fill it with ice and shake.
614
:Shake, shake, shake, shake,
shake, shake until cold, and then
615
:strain it into a cocktail glass.
616
:And then use that lemon peel as a garnish.
617
:All right, friends.
618
:That's all for this week.
619
:If you like what you heard
today, please leave a review
620
:and subscribe to the podcast.
621
:Also, please remember to share the podcast
to help it reach a larger audience.
622
:If you want more, Julie
Brown, you can find my book.
623
:This shit works on Amazon
or Barnes and noble.
624
:You can find me on
LinkedIn, actually brown PD.
625
:Just let me know where you
found me when you reach out.
626
:I'm julie brown underscore a bd on
the instagram or you can just pop
627
:Hop on over to my website julie brown
bd.com until next week Cheers guys