She Asked, She Got It: 76 Ways Women Can Win at Work with Kathryn Valentine

Julie: 00:00:13

If you've ever felt weird about negotiating for yourself, whether

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it's your salary, your title, your

work from home ability, the number of

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vacation days you're allowed, or even

your freaking office chair, today's

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episode is about to change your life.

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Women have been told to keep their

head down and wait their turn for

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far too long, and my guest today

is here to blow that outdated

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garbage straight out of the water.

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So buckle up friends.

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Welcome to episode 202 Of this Shit

Works, a podcast dedicated to all things

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networking, relationship building, and

business development where we unpack

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the science, the strategy, and the sheer

audacity it takes to build the career,

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the network, and the life you deserve.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author and networking coach, and today

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I am joined by Katherine Valentine, the

CEO of Worth, more Strategies, top rated

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speaker, and the woman who's teaching

companies like JP Morgan, KPMG, and

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Bain Wine Negotiation is not optional

if you want to advance women at work.

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Her company has been featured in

Harvard Business Review, the Wall

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Street Journal Fast Company, and after

today's conversation, it's about to

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be featured on your vision board.

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So Catherine, welcome to the show.

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Kathryn: Julie, thanks

so much for having me.

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I also, I love that you

mentioned vision board 'cause

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I am looking at mine right now.

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Julie: I feel like, uh, that's the one

thing I've failed doing is having a

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vision board, but I feel like I have

so much shit on my walls anyways.

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I just look around the room, you.

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Kathryn: Well, the only reason I do it

is because my friend Nicole has a vision

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board party every January and she throws

out all the magazines and we all, drink

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and hang out, and that is how it gets

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Julie: Okay.

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Well, I like that.

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I like that.

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Maybe I'll have to join one year.

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Kathryn: She, yes.

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Come.

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She's so fabulous.

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Julie: Okay, because first and foremost,

you know I'm a networking expert.

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This is first and foremost

a networking podcast.

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I wanna ask you something that I heard

you say once in one of your keynotes.

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You said something and it struck me

'cause I hadn't heard of it, even

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though I'm a networking expert.

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You said that men only need one network

to be successful, but women need two.

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Can you explain what

those two networks are?

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Kathryn: Sure.

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I love this research because it

was done by one of my professors, a

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man named Brian Zi at Northwestern.

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And he analyzed 4.5

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million emails, which even that

blows my mind, although for you that

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might just be like a normal Tuesday.

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And what he did from that is he

rebuilt a few thousand networks and

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then he looked at the title and pay.

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Of the progression of

those people's careers.

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And what he found is that women who had

two networks, a very broad network, which

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is predominantly the network of, you know,

very successful male in business, but then

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women who had a second network of a close.

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Circle of inner women, other

professional women were 2.5

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times more successful in title and pay

than women who had a network that was

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just like the one of the successful men.

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And I always found that really

interesting because it means that.

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You know, you and I were chatting

before about how we do a lot of women's

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conferences and ERGs and things like that

for corporations, and it's the analytical

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side of why those organizations matter.

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Like those organizations matter

because simply by showing up, you

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are making yourself more successful.

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I.

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Julie: Yeah.

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And I wonder, it would be interesting

and, and we won't dive into it,

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but it would be interesting to.

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Dig into what do those, what does

that inner network talk about?

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What makes having that

inner network so successful?

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Are you talking about salaries?

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Are you talking about

how you ask for change?

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Are you networking for each other?

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Are you saying each other's

names When opportunities, right.

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It'd be really interesting.

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Well, it, we'll have to do something

different on that at a future date.

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Um, 'cause I don't wanna hijack your

interview, but , that fascinates me.

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And it just goes to show like when women

come together that big things can happen,

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Kathryn: Hmm.

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And I do think, I feel like

I'm hearing a lot of things now

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about we need mixed audience.

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We need mixed audience.

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Yes, absolutely.

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We need mixed audience.

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That doesn't mean that we no

longer need women, only things.

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We need both.

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Julie: Yes, a hundred percent.

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And it's funny because people always

ask me, do you only talk to women

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or you talk to mixed audiences?

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I'm like.

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I talk to everybody, like I'll

you put Mike in front of me.

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I'll talk.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So let's dig into negotiation,

which I will say as bold and

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badass as I am, I shy away from it.

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I think most women do.

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And when I think of negotiation,

I immediately think of

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it in financial terms.

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I think of it in salary negotiations.

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But you say that negotiation isn't

just about money, it's about agency.

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Power.

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And what I loved about this one is sanity.

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So let's break that down.

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Kathryn: I would love to, and if

I do my job well, at the end of

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this, you will not shy away from

negotiations as much anymore.

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So the benefits of negotiations,

the first one is financial.

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I think the media has done a really good

job of getting us up to speed on this.

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So the number that's typically tossed

out is Linda Babcock at Carnegie Mellon.

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Who shows that choosing not to

negotiate is like leaving a million

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dollars on the table throughout

the course of your career.

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Now, Margaret Neil at Stanford did

a different version of this that

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I find really interesting because

that million dollars obviously is

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sensitive to what you make, right?

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Right.

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What profession you're

in and things like that.

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Margaret did a different analysis

showing that it's equivalent to

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having to work an additional eight

years to retire with the same wealth.

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That to me is just like,

I mean, I love what I do.

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Do I wanna work eight

extra years just for fun?

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No.

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There's some other

things I would rather do.

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So that's the financial, you mentioned

the, sanity piece, which is one that

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I don't think we talk about enough.

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So, inherent in negotiation is the ability

to have more control over your day.

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You're weak your year and your life.

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And so if there are things that are

driving up your stress unnecessarily,

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those are things that we can negotiate.

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And I'm happy to tell the story about

the chair that you referred to in

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the intro, but there's all kinds of

things that you can negotiate that.

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You know, don't necessarily have a

fi a number tied to them, but mean a

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lot to you and your life, and allow

your life to be a little bit easier.

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I would also, you know, one of the

things that I talk about a lot is

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because the workforce was built for

predominantly men, inherently it

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means that we need to negotiate a

little bit more because that mold.

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It's just further away from what we need.

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And so the more you can get comfortable

with this negotiation muscle, the more

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you can not only negotiate for financial

benefits, but also for the mental

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wellbeing that allows us to do this well.

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Julie: Yeah, I've been my own boss

tell myself how much I get paid

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every year for nine years, but I

remembered my last contract negotiation

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prior to starting my own business.

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And when the salary that I asked for,

they said, well, you'll be the highest

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paid business developer in the company.

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And I said, well, yeah, that's right.

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And I should be, and , we landed

on a number that was a little bit

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less than I wanted, but the way I

negotiated it was and negotiated.

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A bonus to walk through the door.

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So a sign on bonus, I

negotiated a car allowance.

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I negotiated extra weeks of salary.

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And I, like, there was one

other thing I negotiated.

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Now I can't remember what it was, but I

remember being like, okay, now I'm happy.

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But it took all those other things.

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It wasn't just a, a number

that was gonna make me happy.

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Kathryn: Okay, so you did two things

there that are pretty amazing.

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Um, one is that you looked for other

sources of value, not just your salary.

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And so I have this list of

76 things you can negotiate,

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which we'll talk about later.

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But you also found things that

aren't just base pay, and this is

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what's making me a little bit nervous

about the conversation, right?

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Like the sort of global conversation

right now is that when people think about

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negotiating, they think about base pay.

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Obviously that's something we

need to think about, but there

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are actually financial gender gaps

in other places that we're not.

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Going to visit.

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So for example, the Wall Street Journal

did this investigative report last

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year showing that the gender gap in

stock options is about 20 to 30%.

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So we should be thinking

about that equity.

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Usually it's 30 to 40% depending

on what source you're looking at.

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On the research.

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Robert Walters, which is a recruiting

firm, did something two years ago that

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showed the gender gap in performance.

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Bonuses is 72%.

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So we should absolutely negotiate

your base pay, but let's make sure

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we're negotiating all these other

places where gender gaps exist.

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The other one, uh, Laura Cre Outta

Berkeley did one showing that women

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are being given team sizes, 25 to 40%

smaller than comparable men in order

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to accomplish the same sort of tasks.

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Julie: So we do more with less,

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Kathryn: Yes.

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And so the reason why I say that is,

you know, not to be a downer, but

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just like you did in your negotiation,

let's not just negotiate pay.

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Let's think, hey, what are other

things that could allow me to

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deliver impact or be less stressed

or just be more joyful, right?

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So that's one thing you did.

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That's incredible.

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So other thing you did that like

makes me so excited because I don't

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see it as often is there was a study

by North Craft and Pinkley, I don't

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know how many years ago, showing that.

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And this still blows my mind, but

basically employers look at your

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pay as indicative of the value

that you bring, not your activity.

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Because pay is a number on a paper.

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It's much easier to do.

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And so what they came up with

is that accepting less implies

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that you're delivering less.

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And so we see this in consumer

packaged goods all the time, right?

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We walk into a.

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A store and we assume that the

highest price good is the best.

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Even if we don't choose it,

we assume it's the best.

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Same thing happens in companies.

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They assume that that highest

price person is the best.

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They also resource 'em more.

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They open up the networks for them, right?

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So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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So if you allow yourself to be negotiated

down on pay, you're actually setting

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yourself up to be less successful.

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Julie: That's crazy because you think,

and now I think about the climate we're

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in right now where everybody's saying, by

the summer we're gonna be in a recession.

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Kathryn: Mm-hmm.

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Julie: So when you think about it

mentally and you think about, oh my

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God, I make so much money, I'm gonna

be the first one who's gonna be let

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go because I have the highest salary.

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You are saying that's

probably the opposite.

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They're gonna value you more

because you have a higher salary.

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Mm-hmm.

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Kathryn: negotiation and layoffs.

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However, what I will say is

outside of layoffs, we know that

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people who negotiate more pay.

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Are then said to deliver more impact.

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Like our employers are not looking at

the specific project you did every week.

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They're looking at what you get paid

and deducing your impact off of that.

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Julie: That is, that's fascinating

research number one, because

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you've said so many things.

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You've like this study, this

study, this study, this study.

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And I always say that my podcasts

are like a drinking game.

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Like for every time I say the studies

suggest you should take a drink and

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you'll be fucking hammered by the end

of every episode because I believe

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in data and I believe in studies.

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Kathryn: And I love hearing you say that

because I feel like, and we can talk

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about this in a second, but there are a

lot of, and I'm gonna put in quotations,

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negotiation experts who give advice that

is just straight out wrong for women.

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Like not, oh, that's

not the best for women.

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Like that is 180 degrees

opposite what the research has

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told us over the past 12 years.

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And I feel like.

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Our careers are too important

to just pontificate on what

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we feel like might be right.

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Like I'm only gonna tell you what we're

seeing in the research because otherwise

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it, it's just not good enough for you

to make life decisions based on it.

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Julie: Yeah.

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It's so interesting that

now, I mean, welcome to: 2025

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We're finally starting to hone

in on gender specific research.

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I mean, when I think about how much.

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Money and time years has been spent on

the male Viagra, like the male erection

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pills versus, oh, I don't know, half of

the population is going through menopause.

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Kathryn: I love that you're

laughing as you say it.

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I'm not there yet.

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I'm still like, oh, head in hands.

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Oof.

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Julie: I have a book writing coach and

she just helped a, a, a doctor write

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a book on perimenopause and it just

got published and I'm just so excited.

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'cause there's so much, I mean, again,

this, we're not talking, I mean, maybe

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it is a negotiation in, in the long run,

but that, that conversation wasn't in

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the social consciousness for so long and

now so many people are talking about it.

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And I just think it's, so,

it's, it's finally, finally,

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people are talking about it.

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Kathryn: And it's shocking that

it's taken us this long, right?

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We've been graduating more women than

men from college since the eighties

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and like we're just now talking about

something that all like that half

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Julie: Everybody's gonna

go through it their life.

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Yeah.

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If you get old enough,

you will go through it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Back to negotiation.

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You teach women something.

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You call a relational ask.

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What is that and why does it work so well?

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Kathryn: Um, I feel like when I die,

relational ask will be on my grave.

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I am so into this.

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This has changed my life.

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So a relation.

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Julie: shit working.

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This shit died.

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Kathryn: I can't tell.

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That is so good.

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Um,

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okay.

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Sorry.

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Audience I that then I just went to.

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Okay.

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Why us that a relational ask.

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So this is research that really started

with Hannah Reilly Bowles , and Linda

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Babcock in, call it 12 to 15 years ago.

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Where what they started to figure out

is that when the person that you're

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negotiating with, if you're a woman,

when the person you're negotiating

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believes that your negotiation is both

legitimate and beneficial, those were

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the two key words, that we as women,

are significantly more successful and we

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virtually eliminate the risk of backlash.

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So that sounds great.

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We want that right.

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When I started coaching women, which I

don't do one-on-one coaching anymore,

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but when I did that for multiple years,

one of the things that I found is it is

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incredibly hard to tell a, an extremely

busy person like yourself that in addition

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to all the other things you have going on,

you need to figure out how to negotiate

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in a way that someone else will perceive

as these two very nebulous things.

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And so what we ended up doing and

then perfecting over the course

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of a few hundred negotiations at a

five year period is creating a very

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specific formula that you can use.

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And this formula means that it will

take you two minutes to leverage

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everything we know about how to

negotiate successfully as a woman.

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Do you want me to, do you

want me to get into it?

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Julie: Yep.

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Kathryn: tell you the formula?

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Okay.

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Julie: Down.

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Kathryn: So here's the formula.

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It's past performance plus future vision.

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Plus your ask and then a

collaborative question.

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And the reason why we put a collaborative

question on the end is because women

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are so fricking wonderful that we will

end up actually negotiating against

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ourselves in order to not make the

other person feel uncomfortable.

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So instead of saying something like.

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It's okay if it's not in

your budget this year.

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We wanna say something

like, what do you think?

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Or How can we make that work?

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And then we're gonna move

into our negotiation.

319

: 00:15:57

So past performance is something

that you've done well, that

320

: 00:16:00

matters to the company.

321

: 00:16:02

Future vision is something that

everyone in the room wants.

322

: 00:16:06

And then the ask is what you want,

and you'll tie that to the vision.

323

: 00:16:11

And then you'll wrap up with

the collaborative question.

324

: 00:16:12

Julie, I'm happy.

325

: 00:16:14

If you want, I'm happy to

run an example for you,

326

: 00:16:16

Julie: Yeah, I'd love that.

327

: 00:16:17

Kathryn: Okay.

328

: 00:16:17

What example do you want me to use?

329

: 00:16:18

Make up anything that you

think will be helpful.

330

: 00:16:21

Julie: Well, maybe I'm gonna be

self-serving here and maybe 'cause

331

: 00:16:24

I am on daily basis, am negotiating

speaker's fees for conferences.

332

: 00:16:30

I just did it today.

333

: 00:16:31

I just negotiated a speaker fee

for today for a conference.

334

: 00:16:34

Kathryn: I love this.

335

: 00:16:35

Okay, so what happens when they

send you an inbound is they tell

336

: 00:16:39

you what it is that's important to

them, which is why you're a good fit.

337

: 00:16:43

So as you mentioned, hey, everyone's

been asking for advice on networking.

338

: 00:16:47

Okay, great.

339

: 00:16:48

That's you.

340

: 00:16:48

You own that area.

341

: 00:16:49

No one does that better than you.

342

: 00:16:51

So what you would say in your

negotiation is, as you know, I'm the

343

: 00:16:55

top rated thought leader in networking.

344

: 00:16:57

Or as you know, my networking

book is a bestseller.

345

: 00:16:59

Julie: Hmm.

346

: 00:17:01

Kathryn: That's past performance.

347

: 00:17:02

Future vision is given those 15

years of work, we can knock this

348

: 00:17:07

out of your park for your audience.

349

: 00:17:09

It is typically the highest

rated session that's done in

350

: 00:17:12

two or three day conferences.

351

: 00:17:13

Okay?

352

: 00:17:14

That's something the event

planner really wants, right?

353

: 00:17:16

In order to achieve

that, I need X, Y, and Z.

354

: 00:17:19

And in an ideal negotiation, you're

gonna do more than one thing.

355

: 00:17:22

So you can trade off value.

356

: 00:17:23

Right?

357

: 00:17:23

So I need X in speaker fee Y

in terms of, I don't know, AV

358

: 00:17:29

support or whatever it may be.

359

: 00:17:31

And Z in terms of, and I

need to be in the morning.

360

: 00:17:33

'cause we know that's when

people aren't tired, right?

361

: 00:17:36

Something like that.

362

: 00:17:37

W how can we make this work?

363

: 00:17:39

What do you think?

364

: 00:17:40

And what you might find out, and sometimes

I find this out when I'm negotiating my

365

: 00:17:42

own speaker fees, is people are like,

Ooh, that number's really high, but we

366

: 00:17:47

do have this travel budget sitting over

here where I'm allocated to give you

367

: 00:17:50

multiple thousand additional dollars.

368

: 00:17:52

And it's like, okay, well I'm happy to

split it between here and here for you.

369

: 00:17:56

I'm happy to do it in two payments.

370

: 00:17:57

Like we can work together on these things.

371

: 00:17:59

Right.

372

: 00:18:00

Um, Julie, what do you think about that?

373

: 00:18:02

Julie: I actually, you

made me feel so good.

374

: 00:18:04

'cause I feel like that's what happened

today on the call, and I think this

375

: 00:18:07

is just having the putting in the

reps, doing it over and over because

376

: 00:18:13

I've had negotiations where I was

like, wow, I said the wrong thing.

377

: 00:18:15

That's why I'm not getting paid my value.

378

: 00:18:18

Or, and then that you have ones that

go the opposite way where they were

379

: 00:18:22

like, whatever it takes, we'll pay it.

380

: 00:18:23

And we love those.

381

: 00:18:24

But those are few and far between.

382

: 00:18:26

You're always usually in the

middle somewhere negotiating.

383

: 00:18:29

And when the potential client

came to me today and said, this

384

: 00:18:33

is what we have, and I said.

385

: 00:18:35

That is great.

386

: 00:18:36

That would cover my speaking fee.

387

: 00:18:38

However, there's still a travel

package that has to go on top of that.

388

: 00:18:41

Do you think we can find that as well?

389

: 00:18:43

Because it's not free to fly to your city.

390

: 00:18:48

And so she was like, I think we

can, let me get right back to you.

391

: 00:18:51

So I, I'm feeling pretty good

about my negotiation today.

392

: 00:18:55

Kathryn: Well, and I feel like we're

pretty lucky because we're in a spot

393

: 00:18:57

where we get to negotiate frequently.

394

: 00:18:59

When I think about corporate America,

which is where, we have both put

395

: 00:19:03

together many decades of years there.

396

: 00:19:05

Um, I mean actually we're obviously

25, but theoretically, um, when I

397

: 00:19:10

think about corporate America, it's.

398

: 00:19:12

The stakes are higher because your

boss has been your boss for years.

399

: 00:19:16

You want your boss to

be your boss for years.

400

: 00:19:17

Even if you move in the company,

this person's gonna matter.

401

: 00:19:20

And so getting it right there

and having the research to

402

: 00:19:23

get it right there matters.

403

: 00:19:26

Julie: You know, and I think.

404

: 00:19:28

Maybe I'd love your, advice on this.

405

: 00:19:30

We know that maybe on a yearly

basis we will be negotiating some

406

: 00:19:34

level of raise or some level of

bonus or some level of whatever

407

: 00:19:38

we're asking for on a yearly basis.

408

: 00:19:41

What are your thoughts around

making sure you have a ongoing

409

: 00:19:48

tally of your contributions and

your wins and what you have done?

410

: 00:19:53

I think that's so important.

411

: 00:19:56

Kathryn: I agree with you, and I think

the easiest way to do it is an end

412

: 00:19:59

of week email, which is on Fridays.

413

: 00:20:02

You just send that note that says, Hey,

this week I accomplished X, Y, and z.

414

: 00:20:05

Next week I'm gonna

accomplish A, B, and C.

415

: 00:20:08

Do.

416

: 00:20:08

Are these still the right priorities?

417

: 00:20:09

Have anything changed?

418

: 00:20:10

Right.

419

: 00:20:10

We're also not gonna waste our time

working on something that our boss

420

: 00:20:13

found out on Thursday isn't important

anymore 'cause another team did it.

421

: 00:20:17

And I think that's a

good way to signal that.

422

: 00:20:19

You're always focused on impact and

then when you get a huge win, I.

423

: 00:20:23

Send the email of, I'm really excited

to share that X just happened.

424

: 00:20:26

Here's the impact it's gonna

have on the company, right?

425

: 00:20:29

It means that we're

hitting our sales target.

426

: 00:20:30

It means we have these

two new long-term clients.

427

: 00:20:33

It means our team's going to hit the

department level, sales target, whatever.

428

: 00:20:38

And that becomes a very easy

thing for your boss to just

429

: 00:20:41

search and put into any review.

430

: 00:20:43

Julie: And then harks back to

something Jenny Woods said in her book.

431

: 00:20:46

Wild Courage have that audacity or have

that, I can't remember the exact word.

432

: 00:20:50

I wish I could remember it, but

she was like, always make sure

433

: 00:20:53

you are lining out what you're

accomplishing on a weekly basis.

434

: 00:20:56

Don't do it monthly.

435

: 00:20:57

Don't do it.

436

: 00:20:57

Quarterly.

437

: 00:20:58

Memories are short.

438

: 00:21:00

Do it weekly.

439

: 00:21:00

This is what I accomplished this week.

440

: 00:21:02

Boom.

441

: 00:21:03

Kathryn: And I think some people

keep an Excel and then dah, dah, dah.

442

: 00:21:06

I just think putting in

email is the easiest.

443

: 00:21:07

You can search it too.

444

: 00:21:08

Jenny and I differ on one

thing on that, which is that

445

: 00:21:10

she recommends, it happens on

446

: 00:21:12

Julie: Monday morning.

447

: 00:21:13

Kathryn: and I think that by Monday

morning you're then losing half a day

448

: 00:21:16

to reshuffling, and so then you don't

really get to lean in until Tuesdays.

449

: 00:21:20

So I, I prefer Friday mornings, but again,

that's really a cultural thing I think.

450

: 00:21:25

Julie: Well, actually, you know what?

451

: 00:21:26

I agree with you because when I

think about how I formulate my

452

: 00:21:29

week, I do it on Sunday night.

453

: 00:21:31

I.

454

: 00:21:32

So I think yeah, there's something there.

455

: 00:21:34

Um, so this podcast, I don't, you

know, I'm actually not sure a hundred

456

: 00:21:38

percent of the gender breakdown of the

listeners of this podcast, but I think

457

: 00:21:42

it would be safe to say that it's a

large female audience, but men do listen

458

: 00:21:47

as well, and I know that, so I wanna

ask a question what is the one thing.

459

: 00:21:55

Men need to know about how gender

shows up in negotiation and how they

460

: 00:22:00

can help support either women in

their family, women in their offices,

461

: 00:22:05

women that they're mentoring, or

maybe their advocates for, what is the

462

: 00:22:09

role of men in women's negotiation?

463

: 00:22:13

Kathryn: Mm.

464

: 00:22:14

Interesting question.

465

: 00:22:15

So here's what I would say.

466

: 00:22:17

The reason why it's helpful for all

genders to understand the role of

467

: 00:22:21

gender in negotiation is because any

male who is leading a team is likely

468

: 00:22:26

not optimized for team performance if

he does not understand how this works.

469

: 00:22:30

So, for example, I worked with

a guy named Bob who was in sales,

470

: 00:22:35

and one of the things that he

said is, until we worked together.

471

: 00:22:39

The way that he assigned clients is

whoever asked him the first or the loudest

472

: 00:22:43

he thought, wanted the client the most.

473

: 00:22:45

Right.

474

: 00:22:45

And so that's who the client went to.

475

: 00:22:47

The thing is, that's

gendered, um, that's gendered.

476

: 00:22:50

And because women disproportionately

suffer backlash when negotiating

477

: 00:22:53

for resources on our own, which is

a problem, the relational ask fixes.

478

: 00:22:57

But without that, because of that,

women are less likely to speak up,

479

: 00:23:01

and they are less likely to be loud.

480

: 00:23:03

And so once we talked about

this, Bob was like, oh, shoot.

481

: 00:23:07

And so what he ended up doing

is he implemented a policy

482

: 00:23:10

where when a new client came in.

483

: 00:23:12

He told the team about it, he told

everyone, and then he said, you

484

: 00:23:16

have until next Tuesday's meeting

to email me if you want it and why.

485

: 00:23:20

And what ended up happening is he was

able then to better allocate the clients

486

: 00:23:24

towards the people with experience to

make them really successful, versus

487

: 00:23:27

just the person who happened to hear

about it first because he golfed with

488

: 00:23:30

his buddy on the whatever team, right?

489

: 00:23:33

And so that allowed his team

to become twice as effective.

490

: 00:23:37

Julie: Wow.

491

: 00:23:37

Kathryn: And so for any male managers,

if we don't understand the role gender

492

: 00:23:41

plays, then you're just, your team's

not as effective as it could be.

493

: 00:23:44

Julie: Yeah.

494

: 00:23:46

Kathryn: The other thing I would

say, which is a little bit outside

495

: 00:23:48

the question, but I find helpful to

share when we can is that backlash

496

: 00:23:53

is present in gender non congruent

negotiations, which means for women,

497

: 00:23:57

we're at a higher risk of backlash

when we're negotiating for resources.

498

: 00:24:01

On behalf of ourselves.

499

: 00:24:02

For men, they're at a higher risk of

backlash when they're negotiating safer

500

: 00:24:05

flexibility to be with their families.

501

: 00:24:07

Right.

502

: 00:24:07

That's a gender non congruent negotiation.

503

: 00:24:09

Julie: Oh, get it.

504

: 00:24:10

Kathryn: Mm-hmm.

505

: 00:24:11

So there's not as many of them, but

backlash isn't only a female problem.

506

: 00:24:16

Julie: Interesting.

507

: 00:24:17

I wouldn't have thought of it that way.

508

: 00:24:19

I mean, it makes sense.

509

: 00:24:21

I think you might be friends

with Allison for Gale too.

510

: 00:24:24

I have Allison's book,

likable Badass here.

511

: 00:24:26

She was on the podcast on, and it's

a New York Times bestseller now.

512

: 00:24:30

How about a tip for the badass

women listening to this?

513

: 00:24:35

Podcast right now, who need a

prompt to start employing this?

514

: 00:24:39

Who need a prompt to start

negotiating for themselves?

515

: 00:24:42

What is one thing they can do this

week to either negotiate for themselves

516

: 00:24:48

or start building their negotiation

muscles, even if it feels scary as hell?

517

: 00:24:55

Kathryn: So the one thing you can do is

download this list of 76 things, skim it

518

: 00:24:59

and choose one that you wanna start with.

519

: 00:25:01

And a lot of them, I mean, it's not

like, Hey, go in and ask for a 50% raise.

520

: 00:25:04

This is not where we start.

521

: 00:25:06

there are things like.

522

: 00:25:07

Ask to be present in that meeting.

523

: 00:25:09

Ask to do this special project because

it gives you visibility to the CEO.

524

: 00:25:14

Ask to

525

: 00:25:15

present your findings to the executive

team because that's how you get

526

: 00:25:18

credibility for what you're doing, right?

527

: 00:25:19

There's all kinds of little

things on there, and I would

528

: 00:25:21

say download it, choose one.

529

: 00:25:23

The other thing is for anyone who hears

that and thinks, oh gosh, I'm not ready.

530

: 00:25:28

Stage zero.

531

: 00:25:30

You know, we, we crawl before we walk,

walk before we run the crawl stage is

532

: 00:25:34

go negotiate something outside of work

at dinner, negotiate for free appetizer.

533

: 00:25:39

Like the worst thing that happens

is I say no and it's fine.

534

: 00:25:41

Um, but I challenge you to go negotiate

for something just so you can start

535

: 00:25:45

building that muscle before you need it.

536

: 00:25:47

We don't want your big, you know, annual

review negotiation to be the first

537

: 00:25:51

time that you're doing it this year.

538

: 00:25:53

Julie: So I think I would be remiss if

I didn't talk a little bit about ai.

539

: 00:25:57

I

540

: 00:25:57

Kathryn: Oh, yeah.

541

: 00:25:59

Julie: I was just reminded of this

yesterday when I was thinking about, you

542

: 00:26:03

know, my first book was published in 2020.

543

: 00:26:06

A I wasn't a thing in 2020.

544

: 00:26:09

And when I think about it now,

five years later, how prolific

545

: 00:26:12

it is in our everyday activities.

546

: 00:26:15

I mean, even for me, there's not a day

that goes by that I'm like, Hey, Chachi

547

: 00:26:18

pt, rewrite this paragraph for me.

548

: 00:26:21

Cut this 45 words into 30

words, and still be effective?

549

: 00:26:25

Do you think we, and maybe now or maybe

in the future, can we start using AI

550

: 00:26:31

as a tool in helping us negotiate?

551

: 00:26:34

Kathryn: Julie, I love this question

because last year I was like, yes, we have

552

: 00:26:40

solved it, and then it became very clear,

we have not solved it, and here's why.

553

: 00:26:46

Most of the expert advice out there on

how to negotiate is wrong for women,

554

: 00:26:51

and what AI's strength is that it

gobbles up all of this information

555

: 00:26:55

and then gives it back to you.

556

: 00:26:56

The problem is the information

on this is what you know, it's

557

: 00:27:00

what researchers call crap.

558

: 00:27:01

And so garbage and garbage out on this,

which is why I actually just got off

559

: 00:27:05

a call this morning with somebody who

we're gonna build our own negotiation

560

: 00:27:09

bot just for women, where women can put

in like, I wanna ask for X, Y, and Z.

561

: 00:27:13

And it'll give you back the script,

running it through that relational ask,

562

: 00:27:17

and then you can role play with it.

563

: 00:27:18

So it's not gonna be

released until January.

564

: 00:27:20

And I'd never thought that I would build

an AI thing, but the problem is all

565

: 00:27:25

these women are gonna go to Chad, GPT and

they're going to get the wrong advice.

566

: 00:27:29

And it is it.

567

: 00:27:31

Careers will be derailed because of that.

568

: 00:27:33

Yep.

569

: 00:27:35

Julie: January.

570

: 00:27:35

We have to wait till January.

571

: 00:27:36

That is seven months.

572

: 00:27:38

That is seven months away.

573

: 00:27:39

Kathryn: We're, we're gonna release , a

beta version in September, but like, I

574

: 00:27:42

gotta get this right again, like the, your

careers are too important to get it wrong.

575

: 00:27:47

Julie: Again, and when you think about.

576

: 00:27:50

, I heard this,, statistics the

other day and I wish I could

577

: 00:27:53

remember who told me about it.

578

: 00:27:55

Um, 'cause I would love to give

them credit, but they said, you know

579

: 00:27:58

how women's lines in bathrooms are

always so long and the men's lines

580

: 00:28:02

are, you know, always so short.

581

: 00:28:05

Nonexistent.

582

: 00:28:06

And it's because when we are

designing bathrooms, we allot the

583

: 00:28:09

same amount of space to men as women.

584

: 00:28:12

But when you think about how men pee

at urinals, you can fill a lot more

585

: 00:28:16

urinals in a space than you can stalls.

586

: 00:28:18

So we're given equal space and yes.

587

: 00:28:20

And let less toilets or

less, places to pee.

588

: 00:28:23

And I, that had me thinking like

that's why that is the downfall.

589

: 00:28:28

AI because most of the data, most of the

research, most of the everything written

590

: 00:28:36

was written by men or designed by men.

591

: 00:28:40

So it's going to keep perpetuating in

equal spaces or in equal languages.

592

: 00:28:47

Kathryn: yes.

593

: 00:28:47

And so the Wall Street Journal had an

article last year where a negotiation

594

: 00:28:51

expert said, go in and say, pay

me more because I deserve more.

595

: 00:28:56

And , now that we've talked about this,

Julie's face is just like, oh, now

596

: 00:28:59

that we've talked about this, we know

that is incredibly gendered advice.

597

: 00:29:03

However, AI's gonna gobble that up.

598

: 00:29:06

Julie: Mm-hmm.

599

: 00:29:09

Ladies and gentlemen, mostly the ladies.

600

: 00:29:12

January, 2026.

601

: 00:29:14

You download this

602

: 00:29:16

Kathryn: Yeah.

603

: 00:29:16

Or come to our test group in

September once I get my act together.

604

: 00:29:19

Yeah.

605

: 00:29:20

Julie: I can't wait.

606

: 00:29:21

I can't wait to have that

in the hands of people.

607

: 00:29:25

You do such important work number

one, where can people find you?

608

: 00:29:29

Where can they download this list

76 things to ask and where can

609

: 00:29:33

they get on a waiting list for this

app that will be beta tested in.

610

: 00:29:39

Kathryn: Julie, I love

that you teased that out.

611

: 00:29:40

That wasn't, I mean, because that

happened 90 minutes ago, was not

612

: 00:29:43

something I planned on talking about.

613

: 00:29:45

, so here's the answer to your question.

614

: 00:29:46

For listeners who are interested in

learning more, that list of 76 things

615

: 00:29:50

you can negotiate, you can download

for free by going to 76 things.com.

616

: 00:29:55

So number seven, number

six, then things.com.

617

: 00:30:00

That will also put you on our email list

where you will get the first notification

618

: 00:30:04

as soon as we have this AI tool ready.

619

: 00:30:06

And then secondly, if you're a

part of a women's organization,

620

: 00:30:09

please consider recommending me

as a speaker because that's how we

621

: 00:30:13

get these strategies to more women.

622

: 00:30:14

Now that I don't coach,

that's actually the only way.

623

: 00:30:16

Besides wonderful people like Julie

who will invite me onto their podcast

624

: 00:30:20

that we're getting these tools to

these 79 million women who need them.

625

: 00:30:23

Julie: Right.

626

: 00:30:24

Well, okay.

627

: 00:30:25

That was a lot, so I'm gonna

put it all in the show notes.

628

: 00:30:28

I'm just so glad we

finally made this happen.

629

: 00:30:30

'cause I know it was a long time

coming and that was my fault.

630

: 00:30:33

So I'm so glad we

finally made this happen.

631

: 00:30:35

Kathryn: Well, it was only because you

had such an amazing thing happening,

632

: 00:30:38

so congratulations on the big talk

and it being, it sounds like it was

633

: 00:30:41

a huge win for that organization.

634

: 00:30:43

Julie: The talk in the book proposal

were happening side by side and they're,

635

: 00:30:47

they're both in the right direction, so

636

: 00:30:50

Kathryn: We'll take it.

637

: 00:30:51

Julie: Yeah.

638

: 00:30:51

Well, thank you so much.

639

: 00:30:52

Thanks for being here and thanks

for the work you do actually.

640

: 00:30:56

Kathryn: Same to you, Julie.

641

: 00:31:11

Okay friends, if you've been

waiting for a sign to start

642

: 00:31:14

negotiating, congratulations.

643

: 00:31:16

This is your neon flashing billboard.

644

: 00:31:19

As Catherine explains, skipping

negotiations isn't just

645

: 00:31:23

leaving money on the table.

646

: 00:31:25

It's like agreeing to work eight more

years just to retire with the same wealth.

647

: 00:31:32

Eight years.

648

: 00:31:33

That's a lot of missed vacations.

649

: 00:31:35

Unread beach books and

bottomless brunches.

650

: 00:31:38

You could have been enjoying.

651

: 00:31:40

Listen, if the big asks feels

intimidating right now, then start small.

652

: 00:31:46

Ask for better snacks in the break

room or a chair that doesn't suck.

653

: 00:31:52

Or you know, more remote days.

654

: 00:31:55

I'm living proof that.

655

: 00:31:58

The more you practice asking

for something, the better

656

: 00:32:01

and bolder you get at it.

657

: 00:32:03

So whether it's that raise or one

of the things on Catherine's 76

658

: 00:32:08

game changing ass, just remember,

you don't need to be fearless.

659

: 00:32:11

You don't need to be fearless.

660

: 00:32:13

You just need to start asking.

661

: 00:32:17

All right, friends onto the drink

of the week, which I've been wanting

662

: 00:32:20

to make this for a very long time.

663

: 00:32:21

It is the Strawberry Aperol Margarita,

and it's courtesy of Cocktails with Val.

664

: 00:32:27

It's an Instagram page, uh, because

negotiating it deserves a cocktail.

665

: 00:32:32

It can be tough.

666

: 00:32:33

I know.

667

: 00:32:34

That's why I told you to start.

668

: 00:32:35

Small start.

669

: 00:32:35

Okay.

670

: 00:32:36

This cocktail has got strawberry syrup.

671

: 00:32:39

Aperol lime juice, tequila, a salty rim.

672

: 00:32:41

It's perfect.

673

: 00:32:43

It's perfect metaphor for negotiation.

674

: 00:32:45

Sweet.

675

: 00:32:46

Bold, just the right amount of

edge, if you know what I mean.

676

: 00:32:49

Um, oh my God.

677

: 00:32:51

Oh, speaking of bold, we're, my husband's

turning 50 this month and the neighborhood

678

: 00:32:56

is throwing a nacho average birthday

party , for him and a few other people who

679

: 00:33:00

are also having big milestone birthdays.

680

: 00:33:02

And I bought napkins for the party.

681

: 00:33:04

That's that say in quotations.

682

: 00:33:06

And then tequila whispered.

683

: 00:33:08

Tell them what you really think.

684

: 00:33:10

And honestly, that's the energy.

685

: 00:33:13

That is the energy I want you to

bring to your next negotiation.

686

: 00:33:16

Tell 'em what you really think.

687

: 00:33:18

Channel your inner tequila

and ask for what you want, and

688

: 00:33:21

then celebrate with this drink.

689

: 00:33:23

Okay?

690

: 00:33:24

Here's what you're gonna need.

691

: 00:33:25

One ounce of strawberry syrup.

692

: 00:33:27

One ounce of Aperol, one ounce

of lime juice, and two ounces

693

: 00:33:31

of tequila Blanco tequila.

694

: 00:33:33

And then you're gonna need some

salt and lime zest for the rim.

695

: 00:33:36

What you're gonna do is you're gonna

combine all ingredients in a shaker with

696

: 00:33:39

ice, shake the shit out of it, and then

pour it into a fun cocktail glass that

697

: 00:33:43

is rimmed with that salt and lime zest.

698

: 00:33:45

Perfect.

699

: 00:33:46

Perfect.

700

: 00:33:47

Alright, friends, I hope

you enjoyed this episode.

701

: 00:33:50

I really, really enjoyed

putting it together for you.

702

: 00:33:53

Be sure to check back in as I

will be offering more and more

703

: 00:33:56

bonus episodes in the future.

704

: 00:33:58

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

705

: 00:34:00

and subscribe to the podcast.

706

: 00:34:01

Also, please remember to share

the podcast with your friends to

707

: 00:34:04

help it reach a larger audience.

708

: 00:34:06

If you want more Julie Brown, that's me.

709

: 00:34:08

You can buy my book.

710

: 00:34:09

This shit works on Amazon or Barnes

and Noble, and you can find me on

711

: 00:34:12

LinkedIn at Julie Brown Speaks.

712

: 00:34:15

Just let me know where you

find me when you reach out.

713

: 00:34:17

I'm Julie Brown BD on the Instagram

where you can just pop on over to

714

: 00:34:21

my website, Julie Brown speaks.com

715

: 00:34:24

and until next time, which is

hopefully not too far away, cheers.