Episode 165

The 3 Types of Perfectionism with Nicole Baker Holleman

Published on: 4th October, 2023

Most people think perfectionists are super type A, organized, immaculate, always put together. Would you be surprised that that is hardly ever the case. You may be suffering from one of the three types of perfectionism and not even know it. 

Listen in as I talk with coach Nicole Baker Holleman about the 3 types of perfectionism, what they positive traits are and how to combat the negative ones.


Drink of the week….Balanced Perfection Manhattan



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Nicole Baker Holleman

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Transcript
Speaker:

In 2010, I started seeing a therapist.

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You know, now as I sit here,

I think everybody should have

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a therapist, but back then, I

didn't do it of my own accord.

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I did it when an ear, nose and throat

specialist, who upon looking at my

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polyp, ravaged vocal gourds told me

that I needed to see a therapist.

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To get my anxiety under control,

or I might never talk again.

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Welcome to episode 1

65 of this shit works.

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A podcast dedicated to all

things, networking, relationship

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building and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown.

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Speaker author and networking coach.

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And today I'm joined by Nicole Baker,

Holoman, a coach who helps high achievers,

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ditch, perfectionism, and in doing so

allow them to start achieving their goals.

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You know, you might be thinking,

well, what do vocal cord polyps and

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perfectionism have to do with each other?

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Well, Part of my work with my

therapist included keeping a

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journal of all the things that

stressed me out on a daily basis.

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A portion of my sessions were

then dedicated to going through

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the journal and talking about why

these things were stressing me out.

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A few months after I started working

with the therapist, she brought in a

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specialist to assist with my therapy,

because at that point she was clinically

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diagnosing me with perfectionist OCD.

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I don't know why.

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But I was embarrassed

and kind of pissed off.

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When I got home, Chris asked how my

therapy session had gone and I blurted out

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can you believe they actually clinically

diagnosed me with perfectionist, OCD?

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What the fuck?

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And he just chuckled and said, yeah,

you're a complete perfectionist

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and you totally have OCD.

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He then started to go on and on

about why it was obvious and all

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the things that I do every day and

my quirks, et cetera, et cetera.

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After the diagnosis, my therapy

shifted to managing it and taming it.

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And I can honestly say that I'm

a lot better than I used to be.

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You know, You don't have to be

clinically diagnosed where the

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perfectionist OCD to have it hold

you back in business or a networking.

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Which is why I've asked Nicole to join us.

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She's here to break down the three

types of perfectionism, how those

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types hold us back in different ways

and what we can do to overcome it.

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Nicole.

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Hello, and thank you for being here.

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Nicole: I am so happy to be here and thank

you for sharing that story because wow did

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that just hit me in the heart like just

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Julie: Really?

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Because it hit me in the throat.

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Yeah, um, I was shocked.

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I was shocked that, well, I mean, it was

stress induced and I'm sure a lot of the

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stress was caused by my perfectionism and

a combination of perfectionism and OCD

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together, which actually is a great way

to ask, like, this seems perfectionism and

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overcoming it and coaching it seems like

a very niche area, a very niche space.

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So how did you start in this space?

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Nicole: So I, I had a very

weird and unique upbringing

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is what I like to call it.

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Uh, both of my parents worked

for Tony Robbins and other very

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big personal development gurus

for a long, long, long time.

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And so I grew up attending the seminars.

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I grew up listening to the audio

tapes, walking across fire, you

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know, seeing people have like

those big, I am enough moments.

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And I fell in love with it.

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In growing up in the personal development

world of like the 80s early 90s.

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It was very all or nothing.

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It was very go after your dreams

at no at all costs like make

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sure you're hustling and like so

that was really drilled into me.

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So that constant pressure to be

the best in the room that constant

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pressure to play at 135 percent

every single day or bust was really

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drilled into me to the point where

that high achiever perfectionism was.

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as easy as breathing for me.

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Now, however, when I was in, uh, like

early elementary school, even up to,

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uh, middle school, I started getting

pretty severely bullied to the point

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where I was stuffed into bathrooms.

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I was hit.

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I was called names that I will literally

never tell another person on the planet

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or ever call another person on the planet.

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Cause it was just so kids are so mean.

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It was terrible.

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And one day I was in the

bathroom, I was locking the door.

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So like they couldn't get in and.

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I had this moment where it was, if

I am not perfect, if I am not what

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everyone else needs me to be, if I am

not small, quiet, um, complacent, people

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pleasing, I will continue getting hurt.

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And so not only did I have this high

achiever, I need to be the best, but then

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I also had layered on top of it, if you do

show up too powerfully, you will get hurt.

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And this belief system worked as

like, you know, opposite ends of a

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magnet in me for almost 10 years.

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So flash forward a little ways,

just keep the story short.

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I, um, ended up attending a

very, very, very prominent

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musical theater college for, um.

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In the hopes of going to Broadway in

the hopes of being a musical theater

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performer and my perfectionism

hit a point where it was so bad.

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My anxiety was through the roof.

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I was having daily panic attacks.

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I was drinking myself to blackout

every weekend just to numb any of

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those like high intense feelings.

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I was so overwhelmed by the need to

practice that I'd procrastinate and then

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I beat myself up for procrastinating.

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It was just a terrible,

terrible situation.

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And finally, my professor sat

me down and he was like, You are

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being asked to leave the school or

perform a miracle, basically, and

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he said it much kinder than that.

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I'm kind of, I'm, I'm looking at it

through a lens that I heard when I was

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sitting in his office and I was shocked.

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I was like, Oh my God, I worked my

butt off to get into this college that

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is like a fast track to Broadway and.

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I finally, I called my dad who like,

he's, he's a life coach as well.

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And I was like, I need to start

implementing these things.

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I learned from like growing

up, I never implemented them.

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I always knew them.

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I always knew how to get

that most out of your energy.

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I always knew how to change your state.

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I always knew how to get in, you

know, uh, a good mindset, but I

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was never implementing those tools.

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And so homeboy coached me like nobody's

business for, um, gosh, it was a while.

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And so long story short, I ended up

graduating, thank God, cum laude,

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which I'm going to do a little hair

toss for, you know, but what, what

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really happened in that moment was.

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I realized how much what we say in

between our ears, what we say in our

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brain affects how we show up in the world.

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And so I immediately was like, I think

I need to go into this coaching world.

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Like this is so, this is addicting.

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I love this feeling.

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And.

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I started realizing what I

really loved doing was coaching

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that perfectionist mindset.

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Now, when I say perfectionist, I want to

just put a little caveat here because I

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say perfectionism and a lot of people are

like, oh, you know, the house needs to

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be immaculate, you know, um, like all my

to do lists are perfect and organized.

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That's a type of perfectionism.

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Yes.

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However, it is not perfectionism.

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Full stop.

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I've talked to people who have.

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Like not a single space of clear floor

and they are still a perfectionist.

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I've talked to people who are

disorganized and chaos, and

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they're still a perfectionist.

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I've talked to people who

take messy action, like crazy.

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And they are still a perfectionist.

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What I define perfectionism as

is you have unbelievably high

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standards from your, for yourself.

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And whenever you fall short major

air quotes there, but whenever

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you fall short, you believe that

you are not enough at your core.

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And when you do hit the point of.

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Let's say you're wanting to push

yourself to 200 percent today.

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When you do hit that point, you ask

yourself, damn, I could have done 201.

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So that's how I look at perfectionism.

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Julie: So now that we've defined

it, let's talk of, you say they

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are, there are three types.

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And to the listeners, uh, you have

a test on your website where you can

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figure out which one of these you are.

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And I took the test and we'll

get into that afterwards.

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But let's talk about the

three types of perfectionist

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and perfectionism that exist.

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Nicole: Yes.

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So, um, if you want to take the

quiz, you can go to lifecoachbaker.

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com forward slash quiz, and you can

take this while we're talking about it.

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But what I learned is that.

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As I was talking to people, I've

coached out thousands of perfectionists.

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I learned that they were each

basically in one of three categories.

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Now I want to go ahead and say

right off the bat, you can be like.

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all three types.

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You, it's not like the Enneagram or Myers

Briggs where you were just one type.

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It's not like that.

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Depending on what stage of

life you're in, you might lean

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into one type over the other.

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We all tend to have a home type,

however, one that we tend to go back to.

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It's a little bit more comfortable.

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It's a little bit more, um,

like that home based type.

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So that's what I want you to

think about as I talk about these.

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So the first type of perfectionist

is that high achiever.

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It's the person who is always saying,

um, okay, what's my next goal?

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What's my next goal?

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By the time they achieve said goal, they

celebrate maybe, maybe for two minutes,

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maybe if it's a good day and then

immediately it's a, okay, what's next?

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Okay.

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What's next?

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The kryptonite here, because there's

a lot of positives to this type.

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You tend to play big, you tend

to take a lot of messy action.

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You tend to, um, you know,

be a lot of those successful

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people that we would like.

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In the culturally defined success

as basically they tend to be the

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high achieving perfectionist and

actually they're very open about

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being a high achieving perfectionist,

Bernie Brown, Tim Ferriss, or

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just two of them, which I love.

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So this person tends to put those really,

really high standards on themselves.

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However, they tend to.

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Always say, I'm not doing enough.

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I can push harder.

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Um, they tend to almost like self

flagellate or even beat themselves

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up in order to get to the next level,

which is insinuate, which is, um, uh,

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increasing that belief in our brain that

no matter what I do, I am never enough.

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So that's the high

achieving perfectionist.

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Do you mind, do you want to go ahead

and say which one you are doing?

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Julie: Yeah, so I, so I took the test,

um, and I came in as the overachiever.

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Nicole: Yeah.

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Overachiever, high achiever.

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I use those interchangeably, but yes, yes.

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So that's type one.

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We then have type 2, which

is the procrastinator.

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So the procrastinating

perfectionist, they still have

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very high standards for themselves.

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They tend to look at their goals.

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And by the way, it's not just 1 goal.

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It's like 45 goals at 1 time

that they're trying to achieve.

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Always.

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I literally have counted

with people on said calls.

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Um.

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And they're wanting to get to

the end result of all of these

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goals as fast as possible.

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But what this does is in their

brains, this is what differentiates

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them from the overachiever.

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What it does in their brains is it

like slams down the fight, flight,

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freeze button and procrastinators

tend to flight, not freeze.

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Flight because when they flight

there, Ooh, you know what would

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be more, um, you know, beneficial.

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I'm not really feeling getting

out of my comfort zone today.

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I'm gonna go clean the dishes instead.

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Or, Ooh, um, I know I could send that

email to pitch myself to this really big

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company, or I could post on Instagram

or tick tock, or like, you know, it's

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like we always tend to lean into the.

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easier options.

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Now I like to always say this because

procrastinators hear that they're

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procrastinators and they're like,

Oh my God, that means I'm lazy.

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And that's so not true because

procrastinators are some of the

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hardest mother effing workers

I've ever met in my life.

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Julie: say the whole

thing on this podcast.

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Nicole: Okay, beautiful.

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Motherfucking workers

I've ever met in my life.

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Even more so than overachievers

sometimes, and that freaks

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overachievers out when I say that.

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But the reason is, is because

they're so, they, uh, meaning the

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procrastinators, are so busy working

on every single little thing.

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But it's not the things that are

actually going to move them forward.

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And at the end of the day, they are only

looking at what they have yet to do to

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achieve those 47, 000 goals of theirs.

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So that's the procrastinator.

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And by the way, this is

the biggest type by far,

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Julie: Oh, really?

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Nicole: almost 60 percent of people

who take my quiz, which I think we're

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just shy of 3, 500 now, um, over 60

percent of people are procrastinators.

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So keep that in mind.

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Last but not least is the people pleaser.

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The people pleasing perfectionist

is exactly what it sounds like.

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We are very familiar with the

phrase people pleasing, but what

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it basically means is I need to be

perfect for every single other person.

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What they're doing is constantly

putting other people's opinions.

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Thoughts to do list schedules

on a pedestal above themselves.

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And by doing so, they are probably

going to be ending up procrastinating.

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They're probably going to end

up overachieving to make sure

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they go above and beyond for

that project for their boss.

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But something I see a lot

of the times, especially in

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networking, this is something I'm.

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Actively working on right now is because

I tend to be a very people pleasing

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perfectionist in networking settings.

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And that means I'm always

asking everyone else about them.

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I'm always asking and seeing,

like, how are you doing?

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I'm making sure like everyone feels

so comfortable and so connected.

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But what that ends up doing is

I'm putting everyone else on

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this major pedestal above myself.

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And that means that I'm shying away

from talking about my business or

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I'm shocking, shying away from, you

know, Offering them a piece of advice

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because, oh, they're better than me.

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I don't want to, I don't want to

step on anyone's toes or I don't

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want to ruffle any feathers.

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So that's something that

I'm actively working on.

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Um, but in those, I see that a lot in

more social settings is that people

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pleasing perfectionist tends to.

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rear its ugly head

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Julie: Mm hmm.

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Nicole: So those are the three types.

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Julie: I mean, I feel like as you

were describing these three types,

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I'm, I wrote down almost on every

single one, childhood trauma,

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Nicole: Yes.

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Julie: childhood trauma.

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Nicole: Exactly.

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I, I laugh because it's so accurate.

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Like it's so accurate.

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Yes.

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Julie: Like, I, I once saw this comedian

talk about therapy, and I watch a lot

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of comedians, stand up on comedy shows

and comedians because I, I like to see

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how they deliver a line and a punchline

and it helps me in my professional

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speaking and there was this one,

um, Uh, comedian and she was talking

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about going to therapy and she was

like, most parent people go to therapy

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because they think like, Oh, I suck.

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So I have to go to therapy.

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But therapy is more about like

putting up on a wall, all of the

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reasons why you think you suck.

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And then putting up on another wall,

all of your childhood traumas and then

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drawing strings between your childhood

trauma and why you think you suck.

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Nicole: I know the exact comedian

and it's Taylor Tomlinson.

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Her Netflix special is Look At You.

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She's amazing.

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I love her.

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And yes, I, Oh, my God.

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It's, it's so true.

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Like, and a lot of looking at, especially

perfectionism, because perfectionism,

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anxiety are so interconnected.

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I don't think there's a single

perfectionist out there who

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doesn't have some level of anxiety.

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And when we look at anxiety, especially

in a perfectionist way, it's because

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we're always looking forward.

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We're always looking Future focus,

especially as overachievers, what

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do I need to accomplish next?

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Where am I going?

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Why am I not there yet?

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Da da da da da.

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It's always looking forward, which

means we're never looking present.

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Now sometimes, you know, people pleasing

perfectionists, they'll look backwards.

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Like they'll look at that conversation

they had at that recent networking

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meeting and being like, Oh my God,

I could have done so much better.

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That was so bad that I've done

that on so many occasions.

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Julie: everybody does it.

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Everybody does

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Nicole: it.

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But what the issue with perfectionism,

it's never looking in the present

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moment because present moment

thinking is where we think of journey.

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It's where we think of, Oh my

gosh, I'm growing every single

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day and I'm enough no matter what.

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Julie: Mm hmm.

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Nicole: Present moment thinking is

really the sweet sauce where all

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of these, I'm going to call them

superpowers of these three different

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perfectionists can wildly like flourish.

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But when we're in future or past

thinking in each of these types,

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that's when we go into our.

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Downfalls for lack of a better term,

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Julie: So how do we lean into, I

mean, if we are these things, and we

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are, and our childhood will inform

how we become adults, um, how do we

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lean into the strengths of these?

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Because you did mention that

there are some strengths.

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So, yeah, how can we lean into

the strengths and maybe pull

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away some of, like, the less...

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Um, helpful attributes of these things.

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Nicole: totally.

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So I'm going to, I'll work

backwards on this one.

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So people pleasing

perfectionists, their strength.

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And I'm curious if you agree

with me on this, Julie.

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Their strength is that they give

so many fucks about other people.

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I don't know about you, but the way the

world is going, I think we need a hell

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of a lot more people pleasers out there.

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Healthy people pleasers, let me be very

specific, but we need people giving

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a damn about other people right now.

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So that monstrosity of a superpower,

Is not to be understated.

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Now where it starts to lean into

that superpower over the putting

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other people on a pedestal constantly

is starting the inner work.

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This is going to be a little bit

broad because it's going to be

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so specific for every person.

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So in order for me to stop putting

everyone else on a motherfucking pedestal

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above myself, I need to know that

no matter what my mind, my thoughts,

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my feelings are just as important.

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As those around me.

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So wait, start doing that.

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You're doing a great job right now.

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Cause you're listening to a podcast

about learning how to raise your

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voice up and put it on the same level.

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Um, therapy, you

mentioned you did therapy.

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I just started therapy about, um,

Ooh, golly less than four months ago.

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I started it two months before my wedding.

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That was a mistake.

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I don't recommend doing that.

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That was a terrible idea, but I'm

glad it was better late than never.

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I'm really glad I did it.

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But I learned that I was constantly

putting other people's thoughts,

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opinions, my mother in law specifically,

above like all these different

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thoughts and feelings about myself.

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And in doing so, I started to, in doing

so, meaning therapy, I started learning

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how to use those tools, how to stop

getting in my own way in that way.

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So therapists, coaching,

coaching is a great way to also

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start putting yourself forward.

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Um, I mean, and if those are

not financially available to you

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right now, Go to the library and

get a personal development book.

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Podcasts are effing free.

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I love it.

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They're so great.

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YouTube videos, TED talks.

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There's so many different options here.

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The big thing is just

start opening your ears.

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So you start thinking in a new way.

375

:

Julie: Yeah.

376

:

Nicole: So for the procrastinator, you

know how I mentioned procrastinators

377

:

tend to have all these different

goals and then they tend to want to

378

:

drop in at the end achievement of

each and every single one of them.

379

:

And that's what causes overwhelm.

380

:

We need to diminish the overwhelm

because overwhelm is what

381

:

gets us into procrastination.

382

:

It's like they're so interconnected.

383

:

So what I always think about

is, let's say, um, let's say

384

:

we're going to do easy math.

385

:

My goal is here at level 100.

386

:

Let's say it's.

387

:

Um, you know, launch a book.

388

:

Let's say I really want to have a book.

389

:

That way I can hand them out at little

network networking events, because

390

:

that would be so freaking cool to

just be able to get those out or like

391

:

have, you know, um, be on different

podcasts, all that kind of stuff.

392

:

Let's say having a book is

so, so, so high on my list of

393

:

things I want, that's level 100.

394

:

And if I think of just dropping,

you've written a book, if I just

395

:

think of dropping straight down at

level 100, I would never, ever, ever

396

:

write a single word on a page, never.

397

:

So instead, if I'm here at

level zero, again, easy math,

398

:

I'm trying to get to level 100.

399

:

I need to ask what's step one, not

what's step two through 99, just what's

400

:

step one by chunking things down.

401

:

That's what diminishes overwhelm.

402

:

And I see this often

and people are like, ah.

403

:

It can't be that easy.

404

:

It is.

405

:

Our brains are not complicated.

406

:

They are very simplistic in this way.

407

:

So just chunk things down.

408

:

So you're asking what step one.

409

:

So Julia, if you're starting a

new book, what would step one be?

410

:

Julie: I would reach out

to my book writing coach.

411

:

Nicole: Bingo there.

412

:

And that's so easy.

413

:

I could do that in an afternoon.

414

:

Let's say it's launch a website.

415

:

Um, I've never done it before.

416

:

You know, maybe I, this is

brand new information to me.

417

:

I have no idea what to do.

418

:

Step one would be Google

how to start a website.

419

:

Like it's so simple and yet we

get so overwhelmed by trying to

420

:

jump too far ahead of ourselves.

421

:

So ask yourself, what is step one

that diminishes the overwhelm,

422

:

which diminishes procrastination?

423

:

Thank

424

:

Julie: wanna, when we talk about

the procrastinator, I don't wanna

425

:

forget to maybe mention what is

a strength of the procrastinator.

426

:

Nicole: you.

427

:

Yes.

428

:

Oh my gosh.

429

:

So.

430

:

One of the things that procrastinators

do so well, like I mentioned, they

431

:

have 42 goals at any given moment.

432

:

They are some of the biggest dreamers.

433

:

And I'm not saying like the

realistic dreamers, like us high

434

:

achievers tend to be like, we tend

to be very realistic dreamers.

435

:

There tend to be big

dreams, but very realistic.

436

:

For procrastinators, they have

these dreams that literally like

437

:

I can, when we were talking about

it, I can see their body expanding.

438

:

I'm not like a super woo woo person.

439

:

I like, I like neuroscience.

440

:

I like the hard, hard science behind

this stuff, but you can literally see

441

:

energy around them moving mountains for

them, but they get in their own way.

442

:

So the big thing is just that

stopping of the getting their

443

:

own way with the procrastination.

444

:

Cause then that expansion,

it moves so quickly.

445

:

I have seen procrastinators manifest

10 year dreams in six weeks.

446

:

I'm dead serious.

447

:

It is amazing.

448

:

The only, the big things are just

getting out of their own way with

449

:

procrastination and believing that

they can take small steps forward.

450

:

A lot of people think procrastination

is like a fixed trait within them.

451

:

Like I am a procrastinator.

452

:

They make it part of their identity.

453

:

Please, for the love of God.

454

:

Stop that.

455

:

It is not a part of your identity.

456

:

It is not a fixed

emotional state of being.

457

:

It is something that is

fluid and it is a habit.

458

:

You can overcome any habit and rewrite it.

459

:

Full stop.

460

:

Then, overachiever.

461

:

Overachievers.

462

:

We get shit done.

463

:

We get shit done.

464

:

We're the people at the

companies or We're honest.

465

:

What am I saying?

466

:

We're the entrepreneurs.

467

:

We have our own companies.

468

:

We run our own companies.

469

:

We change the world.

470

:

We are the people who tend

to, you know, Steve jobs.

471

:

We come up with these like groundbreaking

ideas, which is really, really cool.

472

:

But like I mentioned earlier, if

you're constantly hating yourself to

473

:

the next level, you're going to, I

always say you need to start enjoying

474

:

the life you're working so hard for.

475

:

So how do we do that?

476

:

Self breaking compassion, but the issue

with self compassion and high achievers

477

:

and overachievers is we equate loving

ourselves, you know, the self care

478

:

did to do with slowing down becoming

mediocre and becoming complacent.

479

:

I hear almost on a daily basis.

480

:

Well, if I, if I slow down, if I start

enjoying my life, if I start, you

481

:

know, finding gratitude and my day

to day things, if I start enjoying or

482

:

like looking at the goals and feeling

proud of myself, I'll lose momentum.

483

:

And I say,

484

:

Julie: Yep.

485

:

Nicole: bullshit,

486

:

Julie: Yeah.

487

:

Nicole: bullshit, that

momentum, that fire, it becomes.

488

:

A bonfire when you start

giving yourself some effing

489

:

credit for how far you've come.

490

:

Because when you're saying,

look at me, I'm so good.

491

:

I like, look at me getting

out of my comfort zone again.

492

:

I'm so awesome.

493

:

Like, look at me go.

494

:

Like we start to enjoy, excuse me, we

start to believe that at our core, we are

495

:

enough and we can still reach for more.

496

:

If I am enough, that does not negate the

fact that I can still reach for more.

497

:

Like, those two things are not mutually

exclusive, and yet us overachievers

498

:

tend to put them in two different boxes.

499

:

Julie: Yeah.

500

:

And when I think about, so now

that I'm thinking about it from a

501

:

networking lens, when I look at the

three different types, and how it might

502

:

affect you networking, I think, okay,

overachievers think I do everything

503

:

on my own, I don't need other people.

504

:

Nicole: hmm.

505

:

Ha ha, yes.

506

:

Julie: Um, and then procrastinators

will wait till they're perfect.

507

:

We'll wait till their resume is right.

508

:

They're at the right job.

509

:

They have the right title.

510

:

They're at the right age or like

whatever to start networking because

511

:

they don't want to go into a room in

which they feel like they don't belong.

512

:

And the people pleaser is

not understanding that.

513

:

Yes, you give you always give into

relationships, but you can't be taken

514

:

advantage of like there needs to be at

some point a reciprocity reflex that

515

:

comes into the networking relationship.

516

:

And so I could see how these three

types could really hinder you from

517

:

creating an effective network or using

a network, the way that you should.

518

:

Nicole: yes.

519

:

Well, I'm going to add to the

overachiever, uh, of this because

520

:

for instance, um, what is this?

521

:

Three weeks ago, I was at a podcasting

conference here in Denver and I was

522

:

so excited for this event, but a few

days beforehand, I started realizing

523

:

that I was going into old childhood

patterns of I need to be the best.

524

:

I need to be the loudest in the room.

525

:

I need to, which is funny

because it's so at odds of that

526

:

people pleasing perfectionist.

527

:

You can see the dichotomy there, but I

was putting some Unbelievable amounts

528

:

of pressure on myself to be, be loud

network, get the most out of this event.

529

:

And it was to the point where

it was not empowering anymore.

530

:

It was me squeezing and white knuckling

the life out of any joy or any, uh, like

531

:

learning I would have at this event.

532

:

So actually it was, I was.

533

:

I was on a call with my therapist

and she knows how to call me out

534

:

immediately on my old personal

development bullshit like I, I believe

535

:

in finding the gray area of personal

development and I grew up very black

536

:

and white personal development, which I

537

:

Julie: I learned the gray area

and therapy because I'm a very

538

:

black and white person as well.

539

:

Nicole: we perfectionists tend to be so

definitely, but when we, when her and I

540

:

were talking, she was like, do you need

to be the best person at this conference

541

:

in order to get the most out of it?

542

:

And I was like, My immediately gut

was yes, of course, absolutely.

543

:

And she was like, what's

the goal of this conference?

544

:

And I was like, It's to learn.

545

:

It's to go to the sessions.

546

:

It's to sit back and enjoy me

being a little freaking Ravenclaw

547

:

and taking notes and like actually

like enjoying the process.

548

:

She was like, that doesn't sound like

you're trying to be the best in the room.

549

:

That sounds like you're leaning

into your already natural strengths

550

:

of being an intelligent person.

551

:

And I was like, God, yeah.

552

:

So.

553

:

I had to remind myself every single

day and sometimes way more than

554

:

once a day at this conference.

555

:

What's the goal here?

556

:

What's the goal here?

557

:

What's the goal here?

558

:

It's not to be the best person.

559

:

It's not to be the loudest person.

560

:

It's not to make sure everyone

knows your name by the end of it.

561

:

Instead, It's to learn and in, and in that

process, I ended up making connections

562

:

that now people are coming on my show.

563

:

I ended up making up connections of, um,

uh, people who have these monster podcasts

564

:

out there who are now listening to mine.

565

:

Like, I mean, literally that came

because I started actually going to

566

:

this thing, leaning into who I am at

my core rather than this like front

567

:

that I felt like I had to put on.

568

:

Julie: Yeah.

569

:

Congratulations on going to a conference

because they're one of my favorite

570

:

networking tools and business development

tools and career development tools

571

:

that I tell all of the people I coach.

572

:

It's like, let's find a conference for

something that, you know, related to

573

:

your job that you are interested in.

574

:

That isn't a place where you get

to talk to collaborators and peers

575

:

and learn and build a network.

576

:

So.

577

:

Kudos to you for doing that.

578

:

And I hope you keep doing that.

579

:

You keep going to conferences.

580

:

Um, because me as a networking

coach, they're one of the, they're

581

:

one of the best tools that we have.

582

:

Nicole: I agree.

583

:

I agree completely.

584

:

Julie: Yeah, but they do, they are, they

can cause a lot of anxiety for people.

585

:

I have a person in my network who.

586

:

He texted me in the middle of a

conference saying how out of place

587

:

she felt and she didn't think that she

belonged there and I got on a call and

588

:

I said, tell me about this conference.

589

:

Tell me the people who are

there and then tell me what your

590

:

role is also in this industry.

591

:

And by the end of it, um, you know,

that call, she was completely happy.

592

:

She was like, Oh my God, I never

even looked at it from this

593

:

side of what my role is here.

594

:

And she ended up having the.

595

:

The best time at that conference.

596

:

Um, I'm not going to say what it was

because I haven't gotten her approval

597

:

to like talk about it, but it was

she was freaking out and I was just

598

:

like, okay, well, let's just look

at it from a different perspective.

599

:

And once we did that, the whole room

opened up to her as a place for her

600

:

to feel comfortable and network.

601

:

So

602

:

Nicole: Yes.

603

:

I, I couldn't agree.

604

:

And actually, uh, I, I like to get

vulnerable as a perfectionist coach

605

:

and share my own imperfections.

606

:

Um, Day one of the conference, I

attended a bunch of panels that were

607

:

these like podcast legends, you know,

this was a big podcasting conference.

608

:

It's called podcast movement.

609

:

If you are a podcaster, please,

for the love of God attend.

610

:

It was incredible.

611

:

But day one, um, I was like, I'm

going to go listen to all the, I was

612

:

being in my little high achiever self.

613

:

I'm going to go listen to all

like the top dogs and learn

614

:

from them at their level 100.

615

:

And I can get both of that.

616

:

And I ended up attending session

after session where they said, if

617

:

you don't have X amount of downloads,

and it was this like astronomical

618

:

Julie: Mm hmm.

619

:

Nicole: then you can't monetize,

you can't grow or did it like, it

620

:

was very, it was, it was bullshit.

621

:

It was absolutely not true.

622

:

And it was all these like white buff

guys who've been podcasting years.

623

:

And I got in my car at the end of the

day and I called my husband and I broke.

624

:

Down completely broke down because

I was like, what am I doing wrong?

625

:

I'm not enough.

626

:

I'm never going to grow.

627

:

I've been doing this for four years.

628

:

I can't get it.

629

:

The irony is now I've actually just

this past week started a second podcast

630

:

because I don't know how to hobby.

631

:

But the, the big thing that just

kept repeating over and over in my

632

:

head is, well, you're not there.

633

:

Therefore, you suck.

634

:

Forgetting that they didn't

get there just like on day one.

635

:

They've been doing this for 12 years.

636

:

Julie: No, and also that

there's always disruptors.

637

:

Always disruptors and outliers in

every single, in every single industry.

638

:

So if somebody says, ever

says, this is the only way to

639

:

do it, they're full of shit.

640

:

And even when I am on stages in front of

thousands of people saying these are...

641

:

I say these are my five

best networking tools.

642

:

This is what has worked for me.

643

:

I can only give this

keynote from my perspective.

644

:

And if my tools work for

you, please take them.

645

:

And if they inspire you to come up

with another tool, please do that.

646

:

Because I'm not you.

647

:

Oh,

648

:

Nicole: Thank you.

649

:

Thank you on behalf of every perfectionist

in the effing world, like, thank you

650

:

for doing that because like, again,

we hear things very black and white.

651

:

I grew up under Tony Robbins.

652

:

He said, you have to get four, like,

this is way back when he was like, I

653

:

only get four hours of sleep a night.

654

:

And therefore, my brain, my

brain said, you can only get

655

:

four hours of sleep at night.

656

:

I.

657

:

I do not function under

eight hours of sleep.

658

:

God help me if I ever have children.

659

:

Like I do not function

under eight hours of sleep.

660

:

And because of that, I was holding

myself to this measuring stick of

661

:

someone who does not work the same

way that I do and who has a very

662

:

different level of teams of hours.

663

:

Like I, I really hate the quote.

664

:

Um, uh, everyone has the same 24 hours

in the day, even Beyonce, because.

665

:

Julie: Beyonce has a team of people

that do things for her in those 24

666

:

Nicole: Exactly.

667

:

Like me, I, you know, I'm, I still

feel like I'm a baby business.

668

:

A lot of the times, even though I've been

doing this for five years, like I don't

669

:

have the same team that Beyonce does.

670

:

I don't have the same team that Tony

Robbins or Tim Ferriss or Brene Brown.

671

:

I don't have those

things, those same teams.

672

:

And if I hold myself to their standards

of pumping out content of, um, you know,

673

:

holding a, uh, conferences that have 500,

000 people at it, like I can't do that.

674

:

Because if I do, I will never

measure up and I will continue

675

:

always beating myself down.

676

:

Julie: Yeah, well, I think that's

actually a great place to end.

677

:

Um, I think this, the way we've

wrapped it up with is just like,

678

:

the one way is not the only way.

679

:

You know, I mean, we have to understand

that as entrepreneurs, as business

680

:

people, as people who achieve, try

to achieve success, like there's

681

:

always multiple ways of achieving.

682

:

Um, so I think you mentioned it

before, but I want you to say it again.

683

:

Where can people find you, um, online

to take this test to figure out maybe

684

:

they've already said, or I already know

what one I am, but you do have, you

685

:

know, so what's great is on your website

when you take this test and you find out

686

:

what you are, there is a, so what now?

687

:

So what can we do now?

688

:

Section that comes after that.

689

:

So where can people find that?

690

:

Nicole: You can go to lifecoachbaker.

691

:

com forward slash quiz,

and it's all right there.

692

:

It's 100 percent free, um, and join the

3, 500 people who have already taken it.

693

:

And if you think you already know,

I've had people take it and be

694

:

like, Oh, I thought I was this,

but then I, you know, read the

695

:

description for the people pleaser.

696

:

And I was like, Oh crap, I'm

actually the people pleaser.

697

:

So, so know that it, it might change.

698

:

And also you might change you.

699

:

I was a people pleaser and

now I definitely resonate

700

:

more with the overachiever.

701

:

Um, I also have my own podcast, which is

called Imperfect Success, um, probably

702

:

where you're listening to this podcast.

703

:

It's on there too.

704

:

So you can check it out there.

705

:

And I'm on Instagram primarily at Life

Coach Baker, um, and I post a bunch of

706

:

funny videos about how ridiculous we are

as perfectionists as well as little tips

707

:

and tricks to overcome perfectionism.

708

:

Julie: Perfect.

709

:

Okay.

710

:

Everyone go there, do all that stuff.

711

:

Nicole, thank you so much.

712

:

This was so fun.

713

:

Thank you so much.

714

:

Nicole: Thank you.

715

:

This is a blast.

716

:

So one of my biggest takeaways from this

interview that you might have missed.

717

:

Was when Nicole said that she

knows people with perfectionism.

718

:

Who also struggle with it.

719

:

And they aren't meticulous about being

organized or having a clean desk or

720

:

everything in their life has perfect.

721

:

You know, A lot of times, I think we

look at ourselves and we have thoughts,

722

:

like, well, I can't be a perfectionist

because everything in my life or at

723

:

least the things I can control aren't.

724

:

Quote unquote.

725

:

Perfect.

726

:

So.

727

:

I mean, that just struck me.

728

:

So there are so many people out there

might who might be suffering from

729

:

one of these perfectionist traits.

730

:

And not even fully realize it.

731

:

You know, if you've listened to this

podcast for any length of time, it

732

:

was obvious that I was going to be

the over achiever perfectionist.

733

:

It goes along with all the other

personality traits that have gone,

734

:

you know, tasks that have gone

through on this show with you.

735

:

Life, path numbers,

Enneagrams everything else.

736

:

And you will say.

737

:

There'll be did a lot to help me.

738

:

I don't think that I'll ever not have

that perfectionist tendency or, or OCD for

739

:

that matter, but those two things aren't

as crippling for me as they used to be.

740

:

And part of being able to deal with

it and manage it was understanding

741

:

it and being diagnosed with it.

742

:

So I would suggest heading on over

to Nicole's website and take the

743

:

test to find out what type you are.

744

:

If you are one.

745

:

And then, you know, embrace it for w.

746

:

For the good it does for you, but

then also look at it and try to figure

747

:

out how it might be holding you back

and how you can work through it.

748

:

Okay.

749

:

Now onto the drink of the week, which

is perfect name, the balanced perfection

750

:

Manhattan from cocktail contest,

who states that a perfect Manhattan.

751

:

And isn't just a description.

752

:

It's a cocktail in and of itself rather

than in the usual combination of whiskey.

753

:

Vermouth and bitters.

754

:

Perfect.

755

:

This balance.

756

:

Perfect Manhattan uses equal

parts of sweet and dry vermouth.

757

:

Creating a cocktail that's slightly

drier, a little less sweet, but

758

:

still focuses on the whiskey.

759

:

Here's what you're going to need.

760

:

One ounce of bourbon.

761

:

It calls for Henry McKenna

single barrel, bottled in bond.

762

:

And.

763

:

You know, I've actually been to this

distillery and this whiskey used to

764

:

be off allocation, which meant that

you, you used to be able to get it.

765

:

Really easily and now because it's, um,

on allocation, you can't get it as easily.

766

:

And it's kind of super expensive when it's

like one week it was $35 in the next week.

767

:

It was like a hundred bucks.

768

:

So it's ridiculous.

769

:

So just use whatever.

770

:

You know, bourbon, you want.

771

:

And then one ounce of rice she

calls for wilderness trail ride

772

:

or will it three-year-old right.

773

:

Again, I've been to the Willet

distillery will, it is rather expensive.

774

:

So, you know, use a ride that you like.

775

:

Half ounce sweet vermouth.

776

:

I have found striver Muth, five

drops of spiced, cherry bitters,

777

:

five drops of orange bitters, and an

orange peel and cherry for garnish.

778

:

So combine the whiskeys, the vermouths

and the bitters and a mixing glass.

779

:

Info with ice, sir, until chilled

and welcome mind at least 30 seconds.

780

:

And then strain into a chilled

martini or coupe, glass, and garnish

781

:

with that orange and the cherry.

782

:

I got to tell ya.

783

:

I might've mentioned it in a

previous podcast last winter,

784

:

but last quarter, it was like my

winter of Manhattan Manhattans.

785

:

It was my go-to drink.

786

:

And I'm super excited that we're kind

of getting into the cooler weather.

787

:

Um and now we have a whole new manhattan

a recipe to try All right friends that's

788

:

all for this week if you like what you

heard today Please leave a review and

789

:

subscribe to the podcast Also please

remember to share this podcast With

790

:

your friends to help her reach a larger

Audience if you want more julie brown

791

:

you can find my book this shit works on

amazon and barnes and noble you can find

792

:

me on linkedin at julie brown bd just

let me know where you found me when you

793

:

reach out I'm julie brown underscore a

bd on the instagram or you can just pop

794

:

on over to my website Julie brown bd.com.

795

:

Until next week cheers guys

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About the Podcast

This Shit Works
The people you meet can 100% Change Your Life! Networking is how you meet those people. Which sucks because you hate networking, you think you're bad at networking, and you certainly don’t have time to network. Bullshit! Welcome to This Shit Works, a weekly podcast hosted by entrepreneur, CEO, public speaker, author, business development strategist and networking coach Julie Brown. Just don’t call her Downtown Julie Brown - she doesn’t like that.

Each week Julie will bring to you her no nonsense tips, tricks and conversations around networking your way to more friends, more adventures and way more success!
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