Episode 189

Unlocking The Power of Strangers: A Conversation with Joe Keohane

Published on: 20th March, 2024

Tune in to this episode for a refreshing perspective on the art of communication, as we delve into the profound insights shared by Joe Keohane on the transformative power of engaging with strangers. In a world often dominated by digital communication, Joe takes us on a journey to discover the untapped potential and unexpected benefits that arise when we step out of our comfort zones and initiate conversations with unfamiliar faces.

In this episode we:

  • Explore the science and psychology behind human connection
  • Discover practical tips on breaking the ice and initiating meaningful conversations
  • Uncover the surprising ways talking to strangers can enhance our well being

Don't miss out on this thought-provoking conversation with Joe Keohane!


Drink of the week….Danger Stranger 



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Joe Keohane

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Transcript
Julie:

The concept of teaching children about stranger danger is deeply ingrained

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in our societal approach to safety.

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From a young age, kids are often

taught to be wary of unfamiliar

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individuals as a means of protecting

themselves from potential harm.

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While this message aims to instill a

sense of caution, it can inadvertently

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foster a persistent fear of the unknown.

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well into adulthood.

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As adults, the lingering effects of

this childhood lesson can hinder our

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ability to comfortably engage with new

people and embrace new experiences.

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Welcome to episode 189 of This Shit

Works, a podcast dedicated to all

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things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach.

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And today I am joined by Joe

Cohane, author of The Power

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of Strangers, The Benefits of

Connecting in a Suspicious World.

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It's remarkable to consider that

many of the individuals who now

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hold significant places in our

hearts were once complete strangers.

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It's a testament to the transformative

power of relationships, reminding us

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that the most meaningful bonds often

emerge from unexpected intersections,

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which is why I am so excited to have

Joe here to talk about how we can learn

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to create more of these intersections

by connecting with strangers.

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Joe, welcome to the podcast.

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Joe: Thanks, Julie.

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Thanks for having me.

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Julie: Yeah, I'm super excited.

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Let's dive right in.

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So your book delves into the

idea that connecting with

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strangers can be a transformative

experience, I wholeheartedly agree.

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Uh, what inspired you

to explore this topic?

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Yeah.

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Joe: family of funeral directors actually

in Boston, and as I grew up, I watched

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them in the way they were socially.

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And basically, they just talk

to everybody all the time.

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They were super social.

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My parents would do things like reach

across two tables in a restaurant to make

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an observation about something someone was

eating or wearing or whatever, but they

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were so adept at it that they were able

to do it without freaking people out.

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And as a kid holidays, there

would be like strangers.

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Over for the 4th of July, someone

they met at Dunkin Donuts, or someone

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they met on a trip, or whatever, they

were constantly accumulating friends.

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And it was never mortifying to me, I

know it's often horrifying, for kids

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when their parents talk to strangers, you

know, mine definitely looks at me funny

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at age 7 when I just chat with people.

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Um, but it seemed like a really natural

and a really healthy way to live and I

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got to see the benefits of it, right?

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Just in the sense of this constant,

stream of new people entering their

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lives and new friendships and all that.

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So, I went into journalism when I was

younger and that also is, you know, you're

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practicing the art of talking to strangers

when you're working in journalism because

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you have to connect with people quickly

and you have to be curious and all that.

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You gotta be quick on your feet.

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Um, but a few years ago, I noticed

that, while some of my most

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formative experiences in my life

came from talking to strangers,

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that I had sort of stopped doing it.

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I was going to bars and I was

like looking at my phone, which

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is an appalling thing to do.

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I would go to CVS and I would go to

the self checkout line and avoid,

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interacting with the cashier.

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And I noticed it one day that I had

sort of pulled back a little bit.

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And I missed the serendipity that I used

to get from just chatting with people

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because if you talk to strangers, you

know, obviously in a safe venue, but if

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you do it the right way, you'll always

be surprised at the hidden depths

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and complexities and idiosyncrasies

and all this stuff that people have.

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So I just started digging in a little

bit and trying to figure out why I had

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pulled back and, more to the point,

the benefits, what the benefits are.

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Um, and from my perspective, a

lot of it was the phone, right?

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Because when you have a phone and you're

of a certain privileged class, you

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can go the rest of your life without

ever talking to a stranger again.

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Right?

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Like, it just removes you from the public.

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And it's really efficient

and, in many ways I like it.

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Um, but it takes you out of the game.

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Takes you out of, kind

of concrete reality a lot.

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Very easily.

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And the other thing is we had a baby and

I was just tired, so I wasn't hanging

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out as much when I was, I was, tired

and just couldn't much couldn't like

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marshal the energy to initiate these

conversations that when I was younger

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came, you know, fairly easy to me.

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So that, that led me down a

million different rabbit holes

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of research, um, looking into.

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You know, why we, why we don't talk

to strangers, when will we, and

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how can we get good at it, what

the long term benefits are for.

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Julie: I have a couple

follow up questions.

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You mentioned that your, you came

from a family of funeral directors.

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Do you think that being around

people all of the time who had

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lost people made your family more?

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just see the value in building

relationships and the people

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around you because they were

constantly around somebody's loss.

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Joe: I mean, I think that

it gives you a sense.

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I worked in the business for a while too.

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Um, it gives you a sense that the

clock is ticking for one thing, right?

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So you don't really take life for granted

when you're surrounded by death a lot.

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I think in the case of my family,

it made everyone very funny.

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And, um, I don't know if you've

had, like, experience with funeral

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directors, but they're really funny

people in the same way that cops

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are often really funny people and ER

nurses are often really funny people.

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People who work in really extreme

situations tend to develop a really

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good sense of humor to cope with the

darkness of what they're seeing every day.

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So they certainly had that, but I mean,

I think You know, to the point here,

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when you work in that business, reality

avoidance is not, an option, right?

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Like, you are in it every day.

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It's a very social business.

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You're interacting face to

face with people every day.

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There's no working from home

when you're a funeral director.

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Like, you are in the

company of other people.

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You're in the company of many different

types of people from many different

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backgrounds, many different persuasions,

and you have to connect with them in

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order to serve them in the way that,

you know, they expect and they deserve.

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, so I think that made everybody pretty

deft, um, socially, and I think that

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helped, probably helped a lot too.

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Julie: So another thing you said

in that first answer was talking

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about talking to strangers, talking

to people at the checkout or

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in the coffee shop or whatever.

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And you said you can have

really good conversations if

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you do it in the right way.

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What did you mean by do it in the

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Joe: Yeah, so this is a big part of the

book where I set out to, to basically

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rebuild myself as a very social person.

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Um, and in order to do that,

I wanted to start from zero.

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I wanted the book to be useful to

someone who didn't have a background

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in this, who might have been, you know,

intensely socially, anxious, who might

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be shy, might be more introverted and

just explain how these interactions

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work on like a molecular level, right?

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All the moving parts of these

interactions, and there are a lot.

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, but also the skills that you can build

in order to get better at it and get

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more comfortable at, and obviously

the big thing is going to be safety.

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So, do it in a place where there

are people around, um, you know, I'm

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very well aware of the advantage I

have is like a six foot tall white

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guy, , in the realm of personal safety.

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But for people who might feel less

safe generally, to find the right

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place to do it, interestingly, a

lot of the people I spoke to, to.

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Gather tips on how to do this.

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Well, identified as introverts

and most of them were women,

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which is interesting to me.

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So I would ask them how they do

it, how they can practice this and

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still feel safe at the same time.

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And they would generally just

say, don't do it in bars, right?

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Because your intention is going to be

misunderstood, but do it, you know,

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in broad daylight when there are

people around, when you can feel more

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comfortable doing it, you're not doing it.

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When you're all alone in a

darkened place, you know?

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Um, but once you find the places

that are gonna be, that you're gonna

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feel safe doing it, it's a question

of just noticing and listening.

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Ironically, the key to talking to

strangers is to not talk to strangers.

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It's to listen to what they're

saying and to notice things.

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So, if you're in, you're both

experiencing the same thing at the same

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time, making an observation about it.

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If there's something about them

that's interesting, respectfully

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ask a question about it.

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And then make it clear that your

intention is not untoward that you're,

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you know, like I like your glasses.

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I'm in the market for

a pair of glasses too.

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Do you mind if I asked

you where I got them?

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, those sorts of things, exercising

those muscles is really important.

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You know, getting back into the

habit of making eye contact is a

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very difficult thing for people.

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So, I took a class with a woman named

Georgie Nightingale in England who

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runs an organization called trigger

conversations and she literally

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teaches classes on talking to

strangers and she's brilliant at it.

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She basically starts from zero.

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So, to get people comfortable to talk to

strangers doesn't mean go into a Starbucks

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and initiate an intense philosophical

conversation with the barista.

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It means you have to start easy.

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You have to get used to like the building

blocks as you go, the fundamental skills.

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So that would be eye contact.

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And so what Georgie taught.

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Was just get used to making eye

contact, and again, like not leering

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at people are glaring at people, right?

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Like under, you know, be aware of

yourself, but when you're walking

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down the street, make eye contact

with somebody and just see how it

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feels to you and see how it goes.

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When you're buying something at a store,

make eye contact with the cashier.

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You'd be shocked how.

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How rare it is that people actually do

this, and then see how they respond and

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kind of monitor your reaction to it.

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And then you can build from there.

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You can say good morning to someone when

you walk by them on the sidewalk, make

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a little eye contact, say good morning,

and then just watch how they respond.

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And you get more comfortable with it

and, by and large, you're pleasantly

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surprised by people's response.

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Um, and then there is, some

great tips that Georgie had.

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Like, say you are in

the supermarket, right?

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And you get to the cash register,

and the person at the cash

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register says, how you doing?

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You know, everybody does the same thing.

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Everyone follows a script.

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Fine, how are you?

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Right?

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You don't put any thought into it.

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You're not actually listening.

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You're not engaged.

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They don't really care.

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It's just, you know, this is something

that humans invented because it

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would be weird to not say anything.

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Though often, often they also not say,

they don't say anything to each other.

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But when you're in a situation like

that, and someone asks you a question

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Um, actually answer the question.

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Um, so if someone says,

how are you doing today?

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You can actually answer that.

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So you don't want to go on and

on about how, like, there's a

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thing growing on your neck or,

you know, don't get weird with it.

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Yeah, but you can, you

can actually answer it.

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And a really, a really cool trick

that Georgie came up with was.

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Um, give a numerical answer.

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So if someone says, how you doing today?

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You can just be like,

you know, six out of 10.

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How are you?

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And it's amazing what that does

when you, when you respond that

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way in these situations, people

will actually light up because now

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something different is happening.

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Like you're actually engaged, you're

actually paying attention and you've

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also created a frame that allows them

to respond in a comfortable way too.

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And what generally happens when

you do that, you say, how are you?

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And they'll give you a

numerical answer back.

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And now you're like, you know, you

have a little, you're playing a little

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game here and then you can, you know,

Georgie will say, well, if you're

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a 7 out of 10, what would it take

to make you an 8 out of 10 today?

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And then maybe someone tells you

a little bit about their life.

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Like these things don't

have to take a long time.

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They can just take the amount of time

it takes to buy something in a store.

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but it's remarkable what people will

tell you and like the possibilities

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for these little connections.

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Um, and sometimes they're really funny

and sometimes they're poignant, you

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know, like a thing that I started doing.

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Particularly after the pandemic,

was, I would ask people if, um, like

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people in service positions, um, if

people are behaving themselves today.

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So if you're in like a Dunkin Donuts and

you say, you know, how are you doing?

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They'll be like, fine.

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And then you say people behaving

themselves today and the stories you

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get are harrowing and hilarious, but

you know, it's, it's good for you

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because you're getting a little bit of

connection, but it's good for them because

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someone is actually empathizing with.

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With a very difficult job, which is

working in service post pandemic.

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Like people just get

beaten on, on those jobs.

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But anyways, I suggested people do that.

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And then my oldest friend went to a Dunkin

Donuts in Massachusetts and asked the

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clerk if people were behaving themselves

today and she just started crying and so

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he called me and he was like, you made

me make a woman cry at Dunkin Donuts.

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Um.

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Julie: You didn't make, that person

didn't make them cry, but everybody

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Joe: I know that's what I

was trying to explain to him.

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I know exactly.

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But, um, but those, you know, it's

like, you don't, you don't, don't get

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ambitious with it right out of the gate.

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Just go for these little, you

want a little exchange, right?

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Like you feel comfortable with it.

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You learn something, someone feels

seen in, in you feel that you have

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a little connection with someone.

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Um, you know, I had to go

back to the supermarket.

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I remember.

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buying groceries one morning and there

was like a teenage girl working there and

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she was like, you asked me how I was doing

and I was like, honestly, I'm beat today.

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My kid kept us up all night last night.

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We're exhausted.

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And she goes, how old is she?

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I was like, she's three and she

goes, I have a little sister too.

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It gets better.

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And this is like a teenager, you know,

and now what could have that, that,

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that interaction could have just been me

not saying anything and her not saying

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anything, but instead it ended up being

like a little connection and I got to

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see a depth of empathy in a teenager and,

and, you know, and we had a little chat.

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It was cool.

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Um, again, not, it doesn't

have to be profound.

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It just has to be that.

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And once you get comfortable with

that sort of level of interaction,

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um, then, you know, and the

situation allows for it, you can't.

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Again, you can't launch into like

a deep philosophical conversation

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with someone who's busy.

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Don't make a nuisance of

yourself, but you learn to

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read people a little bit better.

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You learn to follow your curiosity.

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You get a little quicker on your

feet, learn to navigate these

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very complicated interactions.

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And when you do, there's actually

a growing body of research now, on

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this, the benefits of talking to

strangers, what they call minimal

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social interactions, which are small,

little passing interactions with them.

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guy at the gas station, the woman

at the coffee shop, whatever it is.

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This has been led by psychologists,

Nicholas Epley, Juliana

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Schroeder, and Jillian Sandstrom.

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And they've done a lot of experiments

now, and a lot of this, these findings

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have been replicated in other countries

by other researchers as well, that find

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that when people talk to strangers,

they come away from the experience

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feeling more connected to their

communities, feeling a stronger sense

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of belonging, less lonely, more hopeful.

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You know, long term effects can be

depolarization, it can be a reduction

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of prejudice, all these things that

happen as the result of deeper,

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meaningful, competent, connections with

people who are different than we are.

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There are tons and tons of benefits

of this and at a time when loneliness

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is at epidemic levels and people feel

estranged and they feel angry and they

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feel that they're not being listened to.

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And they're not really leaving

their houses quite as much

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as previous generations.

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, these are really important things.

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I was reading the other day

that they're talking about using

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ketamine to treat loneliness.

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Which is, I'm glad that they're figuring

something out because loneliness has

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very dire physical, consequences.

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But the solution to loneliness, the

cure for loneliness, is just other

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people, like, we are surrounded by

potential treatments for loneliness.

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, we have just, in many cases, lost the

skills to initiate those connections

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and make those friends, you know?

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Julie: Yeah.

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So you actually answered what was going

to be my next question, which was, so

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these, this like six out of 10 thing,

when you, somebody asks, how are you?

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We would probably put this under the

umbrella of small talk and people probably

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don't think that there's a profound

effect to small talk, but your book

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says that there is wellbeing benefits

to these, as you're saying, minimal.

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minimal social interactions, this

small talk that we have with strangers.

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So if we could do that more every single

day, then it would only lend to the idea

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that we'd be, our well being would be

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Joe: Sure.

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Yeah.

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Small talk's funny because it gets

a bad rap, because mainly people

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don't understand what it is.

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I went pretty deep on the anthropological

research of how like humanity

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learned to live among strangers.

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And one of the key, innovations

that human societies came up with

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were things called greeting rituals.

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So there's a thing called, yeah, so one

of the innovations that human society

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came up with in order to deal with the

reality of strangers is these greeting

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rituals, which were just like ritualized

ways to make a stranger feel safe.

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To recognize that we're in the same

space to deal with, sort of the

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possibility of threat coming from the

stranger with versus the possibility

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of opportunity coming from the stranger

and to reconcile those things into a

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structured way that allows us to meet.

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other people, meet new people,

work with other people, and

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communicate with other people.

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Now, in traditional societies,

these are much more elaborate.

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They involve, a series of stages

that the stranger has to be brought

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across in order to show that they're

not murderous, and they're not

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agents of chaos, and all this stuff.

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But we have evidence of these

throughout modern society, too.

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A handshake is a greeting ritual, right?

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a handshake is showing that you

can be, you can make physical

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contact with someone, and

they're not going to attack you.

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, and Smalltalk is another version of these.

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Where, the functional, the function of

small talk is not to be the conversation.

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And that's why people hate small

talk so much is that you get stuck in

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small talk and you can't get out of

it and it's boring and it's miserable

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and, it makes you want to leave.

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What it really is, is that

it's a greeting ritual.

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It's a way of establishing that

you're in the same space, that you can

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safely talk to each other, that you're

experiencing the same reality, right?

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That you're not chaotic.

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It's a way to, normalize yourself

in the presence of another person.

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And then once you do that, once you

connect with the person, once you've

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established, that you can talk safely,

then you can move on to something else.

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Now, if you're at a cocktail

party, like, what do you do?

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That question, right?

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That's a bonding ritual.

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It's a way of like, can

I talk to this person?

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Do I feel comfortable with this person?

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But if you get stuck in what do you do

conversations forever, it's like death.

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It's the worst.

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So basically it's just, it's the

beginning of the conversation.

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And, from there, once you

feel that you can talk, then

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it's a question of listening.

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It's a question of asking good open

ended questions like who, what,

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where, when it's a matter of not.

359

:

Um, just steering the conversation

into something that you're personally

360

:

interested in or do the thing

everyone does, which is like,

361

:

how can I get this back to me?

362

:

, it's like travel, right?

363

:

So when you're really talking to somebody

you've never met before, it gives you the

364

:

opportunity to explore their experiences.

365

:

And the only way you can do that

is being, having an open mind.

366

:

So when they say, this is what

I do for work, you don't just

367

:

say, oh, that's interesting.

368

:

Here's what I do for work, because

that's what kills the conversation.

369

:

You ask questions about that.

370

:

How did you end up doing that?

371

:

Do you like doing it?

372

:

If you could do anything,

would you do that?

373

:

Would you do something else?

374

:

Julie: I always ask, is that what

you wanted to do when you were a kid?

375

:

Because it's generally not.

376

:

Very rarely is it, are they

doing what their childhood them

377

:

Joe: Yeah, did your childhood

dreams die when you took this job?

378

:

Um, there's a guy named Paul Ford

who's a tech CEO and a writer and he

379

:

does this thing when he's at a party

where he'll ask someone what they do,

380

:

what they do and then they'll like, you

know, someone asks you that question

381

:

and you already want to leave, right?

382

:

It's such a

383

:

Julie: Oh, it's been scientifically

proven that it is the most

384

:

Joe: Yeah,

385

:

Julie: question.

386

:

Scientifically proven.

387

:

Joe: if you ask it as an opener and then

what Paul would do is they would tell

388

:

him what he, what they do and he would

say, geez, that sounds really hard.

389

:

And then you would get

like the whole person.

390

:

Once you do that, right?

391

:

I think if you ask people about their,

you know, what they wanted to be as a

392

:

kid, you'll get much more of the person

and then it gets much more interesting.

393

:

And then from there it's a dance

where they disclose something

394

:

a little personal to you.

395

:

You make a match disclosure of

something a little personal too, and

396

:

you're kind of following each other.

397

:

And then sometimes you end up in really

amazing conversations with people if

398

:

you have the time to spend together.

399

:

Um, but yeah, it's just, you have to be

aware of all these different parts of the

400

:

conversation in order to get good at it.

401

:

And that's what I try to do with the book.

402

:

Julie: What do you think?

403

:

You know, what is the balance

between technology or digital

404

:

and personal interactions?

405

:

We mentioned our phone is

probably the biggest culprit.

406

:

It's also sort of the

advancement of technology within

407

:

stores, like you mentioned.

408

:

Self checkout, which I usually do because

I'm just like I just gotta get out of here

409

:

I don't want to wait in line, you know, so

410

:

how do we balance the fact that we

are not going to go backwards as far

411

:

as a society and our dependence on?

412

:

Technology, so how do we balance

that going forward knowing that we do

413

:

Joe: Yeah, I mean, we are, we're

hyper social beings and social

414

:

contact keeps us healthy, like, that's

the baseline thing to understand

415

:

is that you can't go without it.

416

:

And I know that, social contact with

friends, with strangers, with family,

417

:

wherever they can be fraught, they

can be There can be friction involved.

418

:

It can take energy.

419

:

Sometimes you have to travel to do it

like there's effort involved in it.

420

:

And I think the other thing as humans,

like we tend to gravitate towards,

421

:

efficiency and ease in a lot of ways.

422

:

So when given the opportunity

to completely withdraw from in

423

:

person human interactions, like

we'll do it because it's easier.

424

:

And there's an evolutionary reason why we

default, why we'll go for easier things.

425

:

It saves energy.

426

:

It drains fewer resources in terms

of the food you have to eat, the

427

:

calories you burn and everything else.

428

:

Um, but we have evolved, in such a

way that we require real connection

429

:

or else we start to fall apart.

430

:

We fall apart mentally and

we fall apart physically.

431

:

So I think the first thing you

need to understand is, this

432

:

is not like a fun thing to do.

433

:

This is a question of health.

434

:

It's a question of nutrition.

435

:

Like I think of it in terms of, um,

of like your social diet, right?

436

:

So your main, Forms, your main

sources of nourishment are

437

:

going to be friends and family.

438

:

Hopefully if you have healthy

relationships with your friends

439

:

and family, um, but then also just

interacting with the people you meet on

440

:

a daily basis, that's also nourishing.

441

:

That's also nutrition.

442

:

And if those people become

friends, then that's great.

443

:

Right?

444

:

Then that works a lot better.

445

:

And so I think you need to understand what

you need psychologically and what you need

446

:

physically in order to be a healthy human.

447

:

And social interaction

is, a huge part of that.

448

:

Now, can you get that over Zoom?

449

:

A little bit, but it's a little

harder because it's like a more,

450

:

it's like a low fidelity connection

that you get through Zoom.

451

:

A little research showing that,

yes, sometimes, if you have a very

452

:

good conversation on a digital

platform, it can have some of the

453

:

same effects that it does in real life.

454

:

But it's not the same.

455

:

You're not getting the full person.

456

:

It's, it's a little more two dimensional.

457

:

So I think people do need to take

the initiative, but at the same

458

:

time, like I love texting, a lot of

this stuff, it definitely makes life

459

:

easier, but I know I don't feel great

when I do only this for a long time.

460

:

I know that I do need to go out and

just have a conversation with someone

461

:

just to remind myself both that it's

doable to kind of refill the tank.

462

:

And also just to honestly feel a

little bit better about humanity.

463

:

Um, You know, this is a bit

of a side point, but, and I

464

:

didn't put this in the book.

465

:

I didn't realize it until later, but

when you get all your data about what

466

:

humanity is from social media, from the

media, and I say this as like someone

467

:

who's in the media for a long time,

you are going to get an overwhelmingly

468

:

negative view of humanity, right?

469

:

So if you're only reading the

newspaper, you're only, you know,

470

:

reading online publications, you're

going through Twitter, whatever.

471

:

Much of what that's going to tell

you is that people are horrible,

472

:

because the incentives are that

people are horrible on these things.

473

:

And so it's, it ends up being really

reassuring to go out into the world and

474

:

find that you can communicate with someone

you haven't met, and that person is

475

:

interesting, and that person is kind, and

that person is curious, all that stuff.

476

:

It's a way to counteract the pessimism

that you get from, an overwhelmingly

477

:

digital media diet, and I think everyone

I talked to who does this, who wants to do

478

:

it has reported back like a similar thing.

479

:

Just being like, I felt

really lousy about people.

480

:

And then I went out and I just had a

nice conversation with somebody and

481

:

I feel a little bit better because we

generalize from our interactions, right?

482

:

You have one really good interaction

and you feel better about people,

483

:

and you have one bad interaction

and you feel worse about people.

484

:

So you need to be aware of

that, of using this to maintain

485

:

a healthier and more balanced

perspective about what people are.

486

:

And people can be terrible,

no question about it.

487

:

But my experience is that, just

getting out there and talking

488

:

to people makes me feel a lot

better about the species, I guess.

489

:

Julie: Yeah.

490

:

Do you have one story that

someone's shared with you that

491

:

you're like, yes, that's an amazing

stranger intersection story?

492

:

Joe: Yeah, there's, it didn't, this didn't

make the book because it was such a long

493

:

and complicated story that my editor

wouldn't let me put it in there, but I was

494

:

actually talking to this guy yesterday.

495

:

, I was in Boston and I was

getting a taxi back to the train

496

:

station like early one morning.

497

:

To go back to New York where I live

and the Lyft driver shows up and he

498

:

had a dish of starburst in his car.

499

:

And so, you know, it

was just like starburst.

500

:

I haven't seen these in a while.

501

:

And he was like, yeah, you know, I

tried hard candy and no one wanted it.

502

:

And I tried some other stuff and

it seems like starburst is the

503

:

thing that people really, people

are really interested in this.

504

:

And so we started talking and he

ended up being one of the most

505

:

interesting people I've ever met.

506

:

And we're, to this day, we're still

friends, but he was born female,

507

:

identified as male, had a horrendous

childhood in the South, lived all

508

:

over the country, super smart, really

interesting, really charismatic, ended

509

:

up going to Smith College at like 45 to

study public health, ended up in Uganda.

510

:

While in Uganda, Locked eyes one

day in a village called Gulu, with

511

:

a kid who was covered with burns.

512

:

Like, 60 percent of his

body was covered with burns.

513

:

I think he was 10 years

old when Jay met him.

514

:

And they had this profound connection.

515

:

And from that point, Jay decided

that he was going to try to get

516

:

this kid the medical care he needed.

517

:

Because if you get that burned

at a young age, like you'll die.

518

:

Your skin doesn't stretch,

it doesn't grow, so you need

519

:

serious medical treatment.

520

:

So Jay spent 10 years of his life,

trying to get this kid the help that

521

:

he needed in order to survive, and

just this incredible story of like all,

522

:

everything they went through together.

523

:

Really remarkable, and that all came from

me noticing that he had Starburst in the

524

:

car, and it was such a great company, you

know, we rode in the car for 15 minutes

525

:

and I got, you know, he told me about a

lot of that and then I just called him

526

:

and we ended up talking more and, now

we're pals, but I got to, experience that.

527

:

You know, which is a wildlife story.

528

:

I also met him, in the middle of his

transition, and so I couldn't say that

529

:

I had any transgendered friends, and

so it was interesting meeting someone,

530

:

because now I have an understanding of

what the issues are like there, what

531

:

the difficulties are like, and what

the, the struggles and the unintended

532

:

sources of comedy are in this.

533

:

Like, he was just a, just a

fascinating person, and also just,

534

:

like, you know, a good guy to talk to.

535

:

So, I think that was probably my favorite.

536

:

I, you know, I had a, I put a lot of

interactions in the book that were just

537

:

kind of passing interactions that ended

up being Quite profound interactions on

538

:

the subway, which you're not supposed

to do, but those turned out, you know,

539

:

pretty, pretty remarkable in some ways.

540

:

Julie: What?

541

:

What do you mean you're not supposed

542

:

Joe: Nobody's supposed to talk

to strangers in the subway.

543

:

Kiddingly.

544

:

That's like a, that's like

one of the big social norms.

545

:

So one of the things that keeps people

from doing this is like the idea

546

:

that you're not supposed to, right?

547

:

Um, and subways are one of the

places that people feel least

548

:

comfortable talking to strangers.

549

:

Um, I think because it's so crowded

and everyone's very aware that

550

:

everyone else is like busy and

trying to get their quiet time in.

551

:

But there's been A number of pretty big

studies on this where psychologists sent

552

:

people out to, initiate conversations

with strangers on mass transit,

553

:

and every single one of them going

out is like, this is a disaster.

554

:

People are going to think I'm nuts.

555

:

Someone's going to attack me.

556

:

They were overwhelmingly pessimistic.

557

:

About how it was going to go.

558

:

And then they did it and it was unanimous,

like literally unanimously positive.

559

:

these participants were, men and

women across multitude of ages.

560

:

Um, and there wasn't a single

one who had a bad experience.

561

:

So it was pretty amazing, but

there is like, there's this idea

562

:

that you're not supposed to do it.

563

:

And we have a very hard time

violating social norms as humans.

564

:

Julie: Is that a newer, can

I ask a clarifying question?

565

:

Was that, is that, I don't

take the subway anymore.

566

:

I haven't taken the subway or

the T cause I was in Boston.

567

:

I haven't taken the T regularly since

I started my business eight years ago.

568

:

Cause now I just drive to my office.

569

:

But when I did take the T.

570

:

I was so curious about people on

the train, what they were reading,

571

:

where they were, you know, like

I would always, I would always

572

:

talk to people , on the train.

573

:

Is that a newer social norm or is

it, or did I just always buck the

574

:

Joe: Yeah.

575

:

I think you always buck the system.

576

:

And I think there's people with a

certain approach and a certain energy

577

:

who can get away with a lot of this.

578

:

And, my idea is that.

579

:

Having learned about this and having

practiced it a lot, you can get to

580

:

the place where you can just violate

all these social norms and ease

581

:

and people are comfortable with it.

582

:

It becomes problem problematic if I'm

like, if I'm like sweating trying to talk

583

:

to someone on the train, you know, like

making me nervous, I'll make them nervous.

584

:

But if you're confident, you're

comfortable and you're respectful.

585

:

You can pull it off.

586

:

, again, I'm the woman, Georgie

Nightingale in England.

587

:

She got so good at it.

588

:

She's a genius at this stuff, but she

would get on the train, the tube in

589

:

London and see a man wearing a hat

and just point to him and go, and that

590

:

would be enough to start a conversation.

591

:

Like she was so, she just had

like this way about her that it

592

:

made it very easy to do this.

593

:

, but yeah, I think in a lot of cases,

especially in London, like it's a

594

:

huge no, no, you can just Google it.

595

:

And people are horrified at the prospect

of talking to people on the tube.

596

:

Julie: I had no idea, but I'm

also fascinated by strangers.

597

:

So I feel like anytime I can

talk to a stranger, I'm happy.

598

:

So, as we wrap up, which I

don't want to, because I could

599

:

talk about this all day long.

600

:

Do you have one thing that the

listeners could just do today?

601

:

to start doing this in,

in their daily life.

602

:

I

603

:

Joe: Um, I would say,

604

:

So when you're just in your day

to day interactions with a waiter

605

:

at a restaurant with a cashier,

ask them how they're doing.

606

:

But see if you can get a real

answer, like show actual curiosity.

607

:

And I think that's, it's good.

608

:

It's a good place to practice because

it's, you know, it's a finite interaction.

609

:

It's not going to go on forever.

610

:

There's no chance that you're going

to get stuck there for an hour.

611

:

it's just a quick interaction,

but it's a way to, you know, to

612

:

use like an exercise metaphor.

613

:

It's like a way to get your reps in.

614

:

But I think more importantly,

those jobs are so shitty.

615

:

Now people are so nasty

to these people that.

616

:

Just being more human around

them and showing that you see

617

:

them as human beings as equals and

that you're actually interested.

618

:

Um, and you know, you, again, you

have to mind yourself a little bit.

619

:

Don't go in there and just roll in

and ask a super personal question.

620

:

But just aim for a little

bit of connection, right?

621

:

Um, and, and you'll come away

feeling better and you'll

622

:

get better at it as a result.

623

:

But like more to the point, their

day will be a little bit easier.

624

:

Um, and I think it's just like a kindness

that people need to relearn again.

625

:

I feel like we forgot how to be

humans, uh, to a pretty serious

626

:

degree during the pandemic and

we need to rebuild those muscles.

627

:

You need to treat people like humans

and not robots that exist to serve us.

628

:

Julie: All right, Joe.

629

:

Joe, this was great.

630

:

You're not a stranger to me anymore.

631

:

You were before this, but not anymore.

632

:

Thanks so much for

633

:

Joe: Yeah, thank you for having me.

634

:

It was a pleasure.

635

:

There were so many great takeaways

from this episode, but I think my

636

:

nugget that I'm going to be coming

away with and keep in my back pocket.

637

:

Is that small talk is a greeting ritual.

638

:

It's like a handshake.

639

:

Make sure it's quick and use it as a

way to engage in a deeper conversation.

640

:

I hope Joe has helped everyone come

away with an new found appreciation

641

:

for the potential in every encounter.

642

:

Or perhaps.

643

:

A reminder of the power of human

connection that emerges when we

644

:

step beyond our comfort zones, even

if it's just a little itsy bitsy.

645

:

You know, peace beyond our comfort zones.

646

:

Remember.

647

:

Every stranger as a potential friend.

648

:

A source of inspiration or a

gateway to a new perspective.

649

:

Or maybe just a way to brighten

your day for a couple of minutes.

650

:

By embracing the power of strangers.

651

:

We can enrich our lives.

652

:

Broaden our perspectives and

contribute to the creation.

653

:

I have a more connected

and compassionate world.

654

:

All right friends.

655

:

Onto the drink of the week,

which can you believe it?

656

:

There is a cocktail

called stranger danger.

657

:

Of course, of course there is.

658

:

This is a cocktail riff for everything.

659

:

It comes to us from the

folks at imbibe magazine.

660

:

Here's what you're going to need.

661

:

One and a half ounces of Pisco.

662

:

A half an ounce of mezcal.

663

:

One ounce orange cream soda syrup.

664

:

I'm going to give you the recipe for that.

665

:

One ounce of fresh lemon juice.

666

:

Three forests, ounce of

aquafaba or one egg right now.

667

:

Don't get freaked out.

668

:

I drink cocktails with egg whites

all the time, and I've never had

669

:

an adverse reaction from the Iraq.

670

:

Ag so that orange cream soda syrup.

671

:

Here's the recipe.

672

:

Um, this is obviously for a

batch of it for big batch.

673

:

So you could half it or

quarter it as you need.

674

:

So here's the recipe for that?

675

:

Combined 45 ounces of Sunkist.

676

:

With 45 ounces of sugar.

677

:

Cause, you know, It's simple surface.

678

:

Usually one-to-one.

679

:

Two ounces of vanilla extract and

a sauce pan over medium high heat.

680

:

Bring to almost a boil.

681

:

Stir regularly.

682

:

Then let simmer on low heat for 10 to 15

minutes, take off of the heat and cool.

683

:

And then store in the

refrigerator for up to a month.

684

:

Like I said, this is for a big batch.

685

:

So break it down as you see, it's usually.

686

:

Just one once with you have a cup of

Sunkist, use a cup of sugar, get it.

687

:

Um, and then obviously

bring down the vanilla.

688

:

Okay.

689

:

So after you have that simple

syrup made, this is what you're

690

:

going to do for the cocktail.

691

:

You're going to combine all of

the ingredients in a shaker.

692

:

then dry shake.

693

:

So no ice for a minute and then add

ice and shake for 30 more seconds.

694

:

Double strain into a coupe glass.

695

:

All right friends.

696

:

That was a more complicated

cocktail that I normally give.

697

:

Um, let me know if you

make it all right, friends.

698

:

That's all for this week.

699

:

If you like what you heard today,

of course, please leave a review

700

:

and subscribe to the podcast.

701

:

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

702

:

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

703

:

This shit works on Amazon

and Barnes and noble.

704

:

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie, Ron BD.

705

:

Just let me know where you

found me when you reach out.

706

:

I am Julie Brown underscored BD

on the Instagram, or you can just

707

:

pop it over to my website, Julie

Brown, bd.com until next week.

708

:

Cheers.

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About the Podcast

This Shit Works
The people you meet can 100% Change Your Life! Networking is how you meet those people. Which sucks because you hate networking, you think you're bad at networking, and you certainly don’t have time to network. Bullshit! Welcome to This Shit Works, a weekly podcast hosted by entrepreneur, CEO, public speaker, author, business development strategist and networking coach Julie Brown. Just don’t call her Downtown Julie Brown - she doesn’t like that.

Each week Julie will bring to you her no nonsense tips, tricks and conversations around networking your way to more friends, more adventures and way more success!
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