Breaking Down the “Man Up”Myth and Why Real Men Cry with Jim Young

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In today's episode, we are tackling one

of the most harmful societal constructs.

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That has persisted for generations.

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And that is telling boys and men

that having feelings is girly.

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That they aren't allowed to cry and not

showing emotions is a sign of weakness.

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Welcome to episode 1

69 of this shit works.

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A podcast dedicated to all

things, networking, relationship

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building and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown.

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Speaker author and networking coach.

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And today.

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I am joined by author Jim young,

whose book expansive intimacy,

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how tough guys, defeat burnout,

explores the rules of masculinity

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that force men into a false choice.

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That choice being.

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Either face shame by embracing

their inner desires for meaningful

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connection or invite burnout.

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By following the harsh rules

that require men to shun emotions

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and emphasize achievements.

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Needing to be a tough guy.

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Or the whole man up culture.

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Is a set of societal expectations and

norms that dictate how men should behave.

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It encourages men to be stoic.

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Uh, emotionless and tough

in the face of adversity.

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It's a construct that teaches men to

suppress their emotions, especially

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fall durability and sadness.

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And the consequences of this culture

has ripple effects, especially when

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it comes to emotional wellbeing.

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Meaningful connections.

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And burnout.

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Which is why I'm so glad that

Jim is here because he's here

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to call bullshit on all of that.

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And offer us some tips and

perhaps a roadmap on how we can

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begin to combat these Consta.

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Constructs in our own

relationships and in our own lives

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Julie: so, Jim, hi, hello,

so excited you're here.

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Jim: Yeah.

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Thanks, Julie.

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I'm excited to talk about how all

that shit doesn't work and what does.

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Julie: You so many guests now are

like, when they're on, they, they

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put this shit doesn't work into.

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Thank What they're talking about,

and I love that because it's like,

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it's so on brand, obviously on brand.

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It's like a podcast

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Jim: it's such a great name.

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Yeah.

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Julie: Yeah, all right, so let's dive in.

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So it's the societal constructs of

telling men not to cry, of being tough,

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deep historical roots here, millennia,

why has it persisted for so long?

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Jim: I think we, we're still stuck

in some of those old patterns.

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And I think a lot of its story and

narrative, you know, the socialization

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that we get of what it really means

to be a man and, society has shifted

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so much in the past, call it a

hundred years or 30 years or 50 years.

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Right.

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And, and I grew up, I'm a child

of the seventies and I remember

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the women's lib movement.

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I remember as a kid hearing about

that and I'm like, I don't know

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what that means, but I do now.

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Like what I saw was that we finally

started granting women full permission

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to participate and that shifted in a

major way and it was a huge threat to men

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because like, well, what's our purpose?

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And what I think has happened is men

have just grabbed back on to say,

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like, I got to hold on tight to this.

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And we see it all over the place.

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We're seeing it in horrible events

across the globe and in everyday society.

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So I think it's a lot of it

is like identity struggle.

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Julie: Can you talk a little bit about

maybe your personal experiences, growing

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up as a man, and how these constructs

have affected you throughout your life?

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I

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Jim: Yeah, for sure.

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So I, I was born a.

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A sensitive kid, sensitive being.

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And I learned pretty quickly that

that wasn't okay because I was a boy.

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And now I was being raised in a

single family, single parent house.

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My mom was raising me and my sister.

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The other dominant figure in my life

at that time was my grandmother.

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So I'm raised around three women, right?

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I'm learning the world a

lot through their eyes.

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And then I'm going out.

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Whether it's, you know, into school or

hanging out with my friends or later on

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in life, getting into college or work,

and I've got all these influences that

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on one side told me, , we appreciate

you being this sensitive, caring person.

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That's who I was in my family.

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But when I stepped out, I got.

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I got bullied for that.

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I got called names for that.

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And I realized I had to shut that down.

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Like that was not an

okay way for me to be.

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I was not going to get ahead with my

peers in athletics in school at work.

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If I showed up as this sensitive guy.

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So I had to put on.

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All this tough gear.

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Now, I don't want to suggest that,

you know, we shouldn't be as men

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tough and take on hard things.

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Like that's part of

what's great about guys.

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Right.

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And I have that, those qualities, but

I also have the other qualities of

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being a caring person, having emotions.

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And to me, it's about having

that balance that I can bring.

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And it's taken me a long time to feel

like it's okay to say like, yeah,

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that part of me he's allowed into

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Julie: think this is so interesting

because you said you were so For a lot

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of my childhood, my mom was a single mom.

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I had, so I had my mom and I had my older

sister, and then I had my mom's mom.

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So very similar

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Jim: name.

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Julie: Our kind of family

was the same as yours.

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And I had the exact opposite experience,

where I grew up in a family that it

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was, you almost had to act like a man

because there were no men in the family.

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it was, it was very difficult, it

was, you didn't show emotion, you

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didn't cry, crying was for babies,

I'll give you something to cry

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about, like, there was absolutely,

no tolerance for being a girl.

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I think it's weird, I think with the

other, my other sister, there was

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for some reason, but when it came to

me, there was no tolerance for it.

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And so I learned to be.

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Emotionally shut down.

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Like I still don't find it easy to show

emotion, to talk about emotion, to cry.

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Like, I think the most I ever cried

was when my dog died and I was.

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46 years old and it was the

most I'd ever cried in my life.

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And so it's funny.

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I, you would think being raised

predominantly by women, I would have

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had a more emotional upbringing and

it was, it was devoid of emotion.

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Jim: It's not surprising to me.

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I mean, you're born in a, you know,

a female body and you're raised in a

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female family largely in a male dominated

society that says like the way to get

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ahead is to not show any weakness.

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And it's like, it's silly, right?

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Like we all go through our dog

dies, or we don't get the promotion

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that we want, or we get dumped.

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Like, there's all this stuff that happens

to us in our lives that brings up emotion.

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Like it's just natural.

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And yet so many of us, whether

we're men or women or whatever,

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we get the message that says.

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You know, just brush that

off, like, just keep going.

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And it's like, that doesn't give

us much room to deal with what's

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actually going on inside of us.

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And we're holding it in and it's

causing all kinds of stress and

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Julie: I

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Jim: tons of negative consequences

long term when we do that.

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Julie: I heard you once say,

or I read that you said that.

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You had a six hour improv class that

changed your life, and I'm so curious as

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to what possibly happened in that improv

class that could have changed your life.

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Jim: I think the bottom line is that I

got permission to stop pretending, right?

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Which doesn't make a lot of sense, right?

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I was going into a class where I was just

pretending, you know, making shit up, but

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I didn't have to pretend I was somebody.

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I didn't have to go in there with all

these accomplishments and this status

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of who I was and what I could do.

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I was just in there to be creative

and have fun and connect with people.

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And that, that first A workshop

I went to six hours one day, like

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eight years ago, I just walked

into this place where I felt like.

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It didn't matter what I was, who I was,

how I was, like, I was just accepted.

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I belonged there.

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And I could be how I wanted to be.

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And over the years, I've been

practicing improv since then.

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I've got a show on Saturday

and, and I've learned so much.

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about how I can just show up and

explore emotions, explore relationships.

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And it's literally liberating.

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Like I've, I've felt the weight come

off of my shoulders of like trying

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to show up a certain way for people.

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And it's a little bit funny because

it's like in improv, it's like this

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constructed thing where I'm going to show

up with this persona that I put on, but

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somehow it frees me up in my real life.

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Julie: Yeah, it's fun.

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I have a couple of questions

to ask built off of that.

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I think my first question is how do

we start being comfortable showing

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emotion, especially when we're not

sure how other people will react

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to our emotions because there's the

vulnerability of showing it and then

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also not knowing how people will react.

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And like, I, I had a really

interesting learning experience.

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Um, actually, so I don't have children.

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I have the dogs.

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And so all the neighborhood kids,

like my dogs were there, my kids that

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they played with, like they would

come over and play with my dogs.

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And so when my dog passed away, the kids

in the neighborhood took it really hard.

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And I was over the neighbor's house.

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Having dinner or something and

my neighbor's son started

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crying because he missed my dog.

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And I am embarrassed to say it now because

it, because I've learned this stuff, and

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I said to him, I said, Oh baby, don't cry.

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It's okay.

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And.

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I told my husband later when I went

home, I said, Oh, so I don't want

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to say his name because I don't have

permission, but I was like, so and so

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was crying because he misses Royce.

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And he goes, that's good.

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That's good that he was crying,

that he was showing emotion.

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And I was like, not the reaction I had.

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And I felt terrible that I

didn't give him the space to cry.

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Because I couldn't.

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Because I was still emotionally,

unavailable from it.

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Jim: Yeah.

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That makes me think of.

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How I got into improv in the

first place, which was my kids.

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It's my kids were doing improv classes

and they were having so much fun with it.

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And I, that's what inspired me.

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But that connection to that second

part is that I think one of the safe

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places or one of the ways that I

got emotions, emotional expression

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modeled for me was my kids, I've got

three kids, they're now 20, 18 and 15.

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And back then, you know, as

they were growing up, I got to

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see them just be how they were.

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Right.

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And kind of unfiltered and realize

like, why don't I have that kind of joy?

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Or how come I haven't

cried in 10 years, right?

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Like I went through a period of time

where I didn't cry for like 10, 15 years.

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Like I held so much shit in and So I

think in terms of how to start expressing

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that, like, so if there's a model to

me, it's look for examples of like how

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people are doing it in a way that feels

interesting to you, attractive to you.

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Like, Oh, wow.

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Like, look, they seem like they're

able to express what's going on.

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And then I'd like to think of Mr.

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Rogers, like Mr.

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Rogers is one of my heroes.

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Um, loved him when I was a kid and he has

this expression of look for the helpers.

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Who are the safe people in your life

that you can just be who you are, who

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aren't going to judge you, they're

just going to be there to help out

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whatever's going on and start, like

I always talk about like start small,

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like share a little bit, reveal a little

bit to test the waters with somebody.

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Like, is it safe for me to tell you that

I'm not sure how I'm feeling right now?

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But something's going on and

then yes, and then yeah, maybe

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I think I feel a little sad,

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Julie: yeah.

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Jim: like, just start to, to build

that, that trust with somebody.

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Julie: You know, I think, obviously,

societally, this is a problem.

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We need to have more open dialogue around

this, and there is, there's a billboard

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on a road, so I belong to a farm share

in Rhode Island, and when I, because I

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live in Rhode Island on the weekends in

the summer, I drive to the farm share,

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and there's this one roadside, um,

billboard, and it's It's a picture of

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a like you don't see his head You just

see his like neck and his torso and it's

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a guy with a suit on but his shirt's

unbuttoned And you can see some sort of

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like chest hairs like poking out and then

the text on the um billboard is Come in

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and get some things off your big hairy

chest and it is a it's a billboard for

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you know a therapist's office and I just

I I remember seeing it and being like

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this is absolutely Brilliant because

I mean, it's crucial, it's crucial for

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society to challenge and change, the

stereotype that men don't talk about it,

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that it's a stiff upper lip, you have

to be stoic, you can't have feelings,

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and I just wish we would see more of

that, like, how do we get more of that,?

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Jim: I love that example.

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Cause it.

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It pokes fun at it a little bit, right?

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It brings some levity into something that

feels like it's got a ton of gravity.

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It's like, Oh my God, therapy.

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It's like, Oh wait, we can kind

of make a little bit of fun of it.

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And I think to me, that's where

like having comedy in my life.

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And I loved comedy when I was a kid.

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And then I realized like, Oh,

that's not going to get me anywhere.

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I got to be serious and like get

a real job and all that bullshit.

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And then eventually.

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It became a part of my life and I bring

it into my life wherever I can because

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I realize like the work that I do and

I coach guys I coach organizations

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oftentimes i'm dealing with burnout

and If I just go in totally serious

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and heavy Like, it's too much, right?

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And it's like, let's, let's recognize,

let's laugh at it a little bit when we

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can and, you know, get serious when we

need to, but come on, we go around once

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as far as I know, how do we want to do it?

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Right?

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Do we want to be serious about

the shit that's bothering us?

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And do we want to actually have

fun as much as we possibly can?

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Which is one of my core values in life

is to create as much fun as possible.

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Julie: So when did you, know that

this was what you wanted to do?

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You wanted to help people with this?

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This stereotype, these intimacy

issues that are causing, it's kind of

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like, I think about as a runner, if

there's something in your footholds

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that hurts, it's probably coming

from your hip, so a lot of the things

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that are hurting us, they are the

effects of something else happening.

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So, how did you decide, this

is what I want to dive into.

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I want to help people uncover.

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I have a pain here, but it's

actually coming from here.

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Jim: um, I had to crawl out of the burnout

crater myself because I had just like

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crashed and burned by taking so much

on and holding so much in for decades.

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And then once I got out of that and I

said, okay, I got to go reinvent myself.

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It took me a few years to recognize that.

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Like, Oh, what I actually want to do is

help other guys avoid that same fate, or

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at least, you know, if they didn't avoid

it, help them find a faster way out of it.

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And that was only a few years ago that I

kind of recognized that my work was like

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the best, some of the best work that I

could do is what I think a lot of people

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refer to as the wounded healer work.

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It was like, I know what that's like.

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I know it's objectively terrible.

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And so.

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What's the best thing I could do is I

could take the lessons that I learned of

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like what, what got me into that place.

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And then how did I get out so

that if you know if my trajectory

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was like this steep dive.

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Well, how can I flatten that out

for somebody make it a bit easier.

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And it's super rewarding to me because

I think like, if we look at it on the

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grand scale, all the things that are

going on in the world, come from stress,

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they come from violent reactions.

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If I can make a small dent in that, if

I can help one person, even avoid some

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of those lash out reactions or whatever,

because they're in so much stress.

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I've done a great job for myself.

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And if I can do that with

more people, even better

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Julie: How do you...

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I'm very curious to know how you

begin that conversation with somebody.

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Somebody comes to you and

they're like, I'm burned out, I'm

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stressed out, I can't do anything.

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I, I, you know, I'm...

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They're probably not coming to you

saying, I'm emotionally unavailable

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and I haven't cried in 15 years.

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Like, so what is the pulling back

of the onion that you do on that?

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Because I'm assuming you have

to do it with a little bit of.

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Ease and be gentle with people.

302

: 00:18:01

Jim: Yeah.

303

: 00:18:02

Having done it for a bunch of years

now and work with dozens of guys

304

: 00:18:05

who've been in those shoes, I've

learned a lot of the nuance there.

305

: 00:18:09

And there's, you know, I wish that there

was a formula that I could just lay down.

306

: 00:18:12

Cause honestly, I would

just like write it out.

307

: 00:18:14

On a LinkedIn post that I would put

up every day and be like, do these

308

: 00:18:17

five things and you'll be good.

309

: 00:18:19

It's just not, it's like, we're

too complicated as people and

310

: 00:18:21

we have too much history and

baggage and beliefs and all that.

311

: 00:18:25

So I try to approach everybody with,

where they are and just, and just confirm,

312

: 00:18:31

like validate, like, yeah, like I get, I,

one of the reasons I don't think I'd ever

313

: 00:18:36

become a therapist, even though my work

tends to be like therapeutic for people.

314

: 00:18:40

I don't want to do all that schoolwork,

but I also know that for therapists,

315

: 00:18:46

one of the cardinal rules is you

don't really share any of your story.

316

: 00:18:50

And I think for men, because we're

so shut down and we don't share with

317

: 00:18:54

each other, our inner realities

that as a coach, I get to do that.

318

: 00:19:00

And so oftentimes the way that

I've found that helps guys.

319

: 00:19:05

Say like, okay, I'm going

to, I'm going to get real.

320

: 00:19:08

I'm going to be honest here is

to recognize what they're saying.

321

: 00:19:11

And then say, yeah, I hear you.

322

: 00:19:15

I had something just like that.

323

: 00:19:17

Here's what it looked like for me.

324

: 00:19:18

I put out a podcast about it.

325

: 00:19:20

I've got a book about it.

326

: 00:19:21

Like I'm an open book quite literally

so that guys can see , all right,

327

: 00:19:26

well, I'm not alone in this.

328

: 00:19:27

And I write in the book a lot about

shame as a factor in how men get

329

: 00:19:31

into burnout and stay in burnout.

330

: 00:19:33

And I think that's a huge

thing to acknowledge.

331

: 00:19:36

And so I'm just like, I'm out front.

332

: 00:19:37

I'm like, I have shame.

333

: 00:19:39

It helped me get into burnout.

334

: 00:19:40

It kept me in burnout and I had

to bust through it to get out.

335

: 00:19:46

Julie: When I was thinking about

this podcast, , this interview,

336

: 00:19:49

our conversation together, I,

for some reason, and I don't know

337

: 00:19:53

why, my mind went to Fight Club.

338

: 00:19:56

And, probably not the parts

of Fight Club you think.

339

: 00:19:59

I actually went to the parts of Fight

Club where, Ed Norton's character

340

: 00:20:04

goes to, groups, like support

groups, because he can't sleep.

341

: 00:20:10

And when he goes to support groups

when he's there in that environment,

342

: 00:20:13

then he can go home and he doesn't

have insomnia and he sleeps.

343

: 00:20:17

And it made me think about another

statistic that I had heard, which

344

: 00:20:21

is a startling statistic, that the

average adult male only has one friend.

345

: 00:20:27

Jim: Crushing.

346

: 00:20:29

Julie: And I'm thinking like, how much

better maybe our lives would be if

347

: 00:20:35

Not, I'm not saying we have to have

more friends, I know it's, it, it,

348

: 00:20:37

friendship is a process, but, are there

groups for men, like, are there support

349

: 00:20:42

groups that are like, this shit is hard,

like, we can at least get in a room

350

: 00:20:46

together and say this shit is hard.

351

: 00:20:49

Right.

352

: 00:20:49

I do think about, I, I, when I

353

: 00:20:50

Jim: I'm going to start

a men's support group.

354

: 00:20:52

That's called this shit is hard.

355

: 00:20:55

Cause it is.

356

: 00:20:57

Uh, it's so funny.

357

: 00:20:58

You asked that question.

358

: 00:20:58

Cause like literally today, the day

we're recording this, I dropped an

359

: 00:21:02

episode on my podcast that is all about

how men's groups change the trajectory

360

: 00:21:07

of my life starting 12 years ago, and

I've been involved in multiple of them

361

: 00:21:11

over the years as a participant, also

as a facilitator, sitting in a circle

362

: 00:21:18

with other men is millennia old as well.

363

: 00:21:21

Like we've been doing it since time began.

364

: 00:21:24

And it's a way for men.

365

: 00:21:25

To connect in ways that modern

society has told them, like,

366

: 00:21:29

no, no, no, you go it alone.

367

: 00:21:30

You're a rugged individual.

368

: 00:21:32

You don't need any help.

369

: 00:21:34

You just go do it.

370

: 00:21:35

And you prove to everybody that you

can do it better than the rest of them.

371

: 00:21:38

Like that's a disaster waiting to happen.

372

: 00:21:52

Julie: And so I think you said like in a

circle around fire you stayed together for

373

: 00:21:56

for protection and for community and so

many of our basic needs I think come from

374

: 00:22:03

that evolutionary process but our life

is built in a way that pulls us away from

375

: 00:22:09

those things that allowed us to evolve.

376

: 00:22:14

I just think it's so I just think it's so

interesting and I have two nephews and.

377

: 00:22:22

I grew up in a family of women,

like I, it was, like I mentioned,

378

: 00:22:24

it was, it, it, it goes beyond

just, it was my mom and my Nana.

379

: 00:22:28

My Nana was one of five girls.

380

: 00:22:30

My mom was one of two girls.

381

: 00:22:32

I was one of three girls.

382

: 00:22:33

My older sister had a daughter,

like there were no boys.

383

: 00:22:37

And when, when my sister had her first

son, she has two sons, when my sister

384

: 00:22:43

had her first son, um, You know, 10

years ago, I just remember thinking

385

: 00:22:49

like, well, this kid's probably going to

be an asshole because he's going to be

386

: 00:22:51

spoiled because he's the first son in,

u know, on the tree since the: 1800

387

: 00:22:58

But then I also thought like

how difficult it must be to

388

: 00:23:04

raise boys in today's society.

389

: 00:23:09

Jim: Yeah, I have three kids and

my first kid, um, born female

390

: 00:23:17

now identifies as non binary.

391

: 00:23:19

Um, and then I had a son and then I had

a daughter and it was like, I was so

392

: 00:23:26

comfortable having a daughter first.

393

: 00:23:28

I was so at ease with that.

394

: 00:23:30

And then having a son, I was like,

I was unnerved by it because like,

395

: 00:23:35

I don't really know how to raise.

396

: 00:23:38

A boy into manhood.

397

: 00:23:40

Cause I'm still working on that myself.

398

: 00:23:43

And my dad was not really

part of my life growing up.

399

: 00:23:48

We have a good relationship, but

he's just never been connected.

400

: 00:23:51

I didn't see him much as a kid.

401

: 00:23:53

I didn't have a lot of

strong male role models.

402

: 00:23:54

I actually never had what I would

consider to be a real male friendship,

403

: 00:23:59

like a real intimate male friendship.

404

: 00:24:01

Healthy one until I was like 42,

it was the first time that I had

405

: 00:24:07

a conversation with another guy, a

friendship with another guy where I

406

: 00:24:11

could be my real self, I could tell him

what was going on in my life without

407

: 00:24:16

pretending that everything was fine.

408

: 00:24:19

And the power of that for me, it just,

I was like, Oh my God, like life.

409

: 00:24:27

It got so much easier once I started to

be able to relate to other men, because

410

: 00:24:32

I can relate to women all day long.

411

: 00:24:34

And I have my improv troupe

is me and five women, right?

412

: 00:24:37

It's a, it's a fucking

blast and you don't get us.

413

: 00:24:42

You just can't, you know, you just,

as I can't understand what a woman's

414

: 00:24:46

experience is actually in the world,

despite knowing so many of them really

415

: 00:24:50

well, I need other guys who get what it's

like to go through the world as a man,

416

: 00:24:56

and I need to be able to talk with them.

417

: 00:24:58

And I do that now regularly

with a bunch of different guys.

418

: 00:25:02

And I'm glad I'm not part of that

statistic of I only have one male friend.

419

: 00:25:06

Julie: it's sad.

420

: 00:25:08

Um, it breaks my heart.

421

: 00:25:09

Honestly.

422

: 00:25:10

I mean, there's a lot of statistics about

adult friendship and how the older we

423

: 00:25:13

get, the less friendships we have and

424

: 00:25:15

Jim: It affects women too.

425

: 00:25:16

Yeah.

426

: 00:25:17

Julie: Yep.

427

: 00:25:17

Yep.

428

: 00:25:17

And it affects women too.

429

: 00:25:18

And that the average adult hasn't made

a new friend in more than five years.

430

: 00:25:22

And it, it blows me away.

431

: 00:25:25

It blows me away.

432

: 00:25:26

And it, and it breaks my

heart on multiple levels.

433

: 00:25:29

I want, you said something about.

434

: 00:25:31

Doing a podcast about the

men's group that you joined.

435

: 00:25:35

And did I hear you correct that

you're creating a men's group or

436

: 00:25:37

did I just wish that into existence?

437

: 00:25:39

Cause you're going to do

it now that I said it.

438

: 00:25:40

I have

439

: 00:25:41

Jim: You know, it's something that

I've, bandied about for a while.

440

: 00:25:45

And I was Getting ready

to start one this fall.

441

: 00:25:48

And then I had another

work project come up.

442

: 00:25:50

That's taken up a lot of my time.

443

: 00:25:52

It's a true passion for me

of leading those right now.

444

: 00:25:54

I'm a member of one that I co

created and we actually don't have

445

: 00:25:57

a leader where we all lead it.

446

: 00:25:59

There's about 10 of us.

447

: 00:26:01

Um, but I'd love like just to drop

some resources in, like if anybody

448

: 00:26:05

wants to be in a men's group and thinks

that I'd be a great person to lead it.

449

: 00:26:09

I am, um, let me know, like I have

a deep hunger to do that, but.

450

: 00:26:16

There's a bunch of resources out there.

451

: 00:26:17

So anybody who's listening,

like the mankind project is one

452

: 00:26:20

that a lot of people know about.

453

: 00:26:21

It's another big organization

called every man it's E V R Y M A N.

454

: 00:26:27

Um, in the business realm, if you

think about it more from less like

455

: 00:26:31

the personal side, groups like,,

Vistage or YPO masterminds or.

456

: 00:26:37

Uh, executive panels, whatever they

call them, those groups often end up

457

: 00:26:42

being a lot more like a men's circle.

458

: 00:26:45

Cause a lot of them are men,

and the vulnerability that's

459

: 00:26:47

allowed in those spaces.

460

: 00:26:48

I know from experience of talking

to people who've been in those

461

: 00:26:51

is super healing for them.

462

: 00:26:53

Um, and then there are people

like me who, you know, private

463

: 00:26:57

coaches who run their own groups.

464

: 00:26:58

And there's a bunch of us out there.

465

: 00:27:00

Um, get in touch with

me if you want to find.

466

: 00:27:03

I can refer you to some people or if

you want to talk to me about doing

467

: 00:27:06

one in the way that I do it, you

know, I'm interested in that too.

468

: 00:27:11

Julie: like one final question.

469

: 00:27:13

Um, And I don't exactly

know how to phrase it.

470

: 00:27:18

In the past few years, there's

been a lot of, emphasis on DEI.

471

: 00:27:23

There's been a lot of emphasis on

making sure that women can excel in

472

: 00:27:27

the workplace and get paid, their fair

share, get paid what men get paid.

473

: 00:27:31

And I've heard, and I work

in a male dominated industry.

474

: 00:27:34

I've worked in architecture and

construction for 17 years, and

475

: 00:27:37

now the speaking industry is

also a male dominated industry.

476

: 00:27:41

And I have had some people in my

network say to me, well, I can't

477

: 00:27:48

get work right now, or it's really

hard to be a white male, or now

478

: 00:27:53

everything's stacked against me.

479

: 00:27:55

And, I'd love to know just, how to react

to that because they, because there's

480

: 00:28:00

something, there's, there's a dichotomy

here of, you have had it so good for

481

: 00:28:06

so long on a lot of different fronts.

482

: 00:28:10

But yes, you also were dealing with

these constructs that were really

483

: 00:28:14

difficult, but it doesn't make it okay

to be mad that I'm getting a fair share

484

: 00:28:20

now at, at, you know, what should have

been a fair share a long time ago.

485

: 00:28:24

And I'd love to know your thoughts

behind that because I think there are

486

: 00:28:27

a lot of white males right now who

are feeling a huge resentment against

487

: 00:28:32

what's happening in the corporate world.

488

: 00:28:35

Jim: Yeah, I get it.

489

: 00:28:36

I actually, one of my long running

projects is I partner up with an

490

: 00:28:39

organization as a facilitator doing

gender equity programs for corporate.

491

: 00:28:45

, leaders and most of our men is talking

about how do we balance those scales

492

: 00:28:50

and there really is a lot of Fear, you

know as layoffs are happening and as the

493

: 00:28:55

job market is kind of this crazy state

I think it gets really tricky because

494

: 00:29:00

we're talking about a huge systemic

issue That none of us personally created

495

: 00:29:06

and yet the reality is White men have

benefited Like, period, end of story.

496

: 00:29:12

Like, you can't deny the statistics.

497

: 00:29:14

Like, on the Fortune 500 list

of CEOs, 41 of them are women.

498

: 00:29:20

60 of them are named John,

James, or Robert or something.

499

: 00:29:25

Like, we have literally three men's names.

500

: 00:29:28

That make up more than

the total of women CEOs

501

: 00:29:31

Julie: Yeah.

502

: 00:29:31

There's more CEOs named David

David than there are female

503

: 00:29:35

Jim: Right.

504

: 00:29:36

So like there's, there's tons of evidence

and at the personal level, when you get

505

: 00:29:40

down to that guy, who's like, I can't

find an opportunity, it's like, all right,

506

: 00:29:45

well now I got to break out my empathy.

507

: 00:29:47

Cause nobody wants anybody to be in

that position where they're feeling

508

: 00:29:50

like they're struggling or threatened.

509

: 00:29:52

And when people are struggling

or threatened, they don't,

510

: 00:29:54

they're certainly not their best.

511

: 00:29:56

So how do we find ways to support

that person and help them see that

512

: 00:30:01

this isn't against you personally.

513

: 00:30:04

It's how the system is rebalancing itself.

514

: 00:30:06

And that's, that's, I don't

have a perfect answer for that.

515

: 00:30:09

That's a really, really tough question,

but I think we have to be in dialogue

516

: 00:30:13

and start to say, yeah, I see you.

517

: 00:30:16

And I think the other piece of it

is like, there's a, uh, I think

518

: 00:30:23

it's Simon Sinek is the author.

519

: 00:30:24

Who's got a book called the infinite game.

520

: 00:30:26

Julie: Yes, that is exactly right.

521

: 00:30:28

Jim: Right.

522

: 00:30:28

And so there's this finite mentality

of well, it's a zero sum game.

523

: 00:30:32

She got the job.

524

: 00:30:33

I didn't.

525

: 00:30:34

The opportunities are going

to people that aren't me.

526

: 00:30:37

Yeah, okay, well, what are

the other opportunities?

527

: 00:30:40

When I was in the corporate

world, I only saw this much.

528

: 00:30:44

I had my head down.

529

: 00:30:45

And when I finally busted out of that and

I picked my head up and I looked at like,

530

: 00:30:48

what's actually going on in the world?

531

: 00:30:50

What are the opportunities

that are really out there?

532

: 00:30:52

And what do I want that's not about

me climbing a ladder and getting

533

: 00:30:56

status to be respected or feel like

I've achieved something external?

534

: 00:31:01

I started to realize like, Oh, there's

a lot of things that I could do.

535

: 00:31:04

And I don't have to get

the highest paycheck.

536

: 00:31:07

I don't have to, have the best title

on my social media post job title.

537

: 00:31:13

I think breaking out of like, what does

success look like for men in this culture?

538

: 00:31:17

And I know men who have made a shift to

say, you know what, I actually want to be

539

: 00:31:22

the person who is at home with the kids.

540

: 00:31:25

Julie: hmm.

541

: 00:31:25

Jim: Right.

542

: 00:31:26

So there's, I think there's a lot of

different ways that men can get fulfilled

543

: 00:31:30

that are not about the standard path

that's been given to them, the playbook

544

: 00:31:34

that says this is how to be a man.

545

: 00:31:35

I think if we break out of that

playbook, some of those dynamics of

546

: 00:31:38

like who gets the opportunities, I

think they start to become a bit easier.

547

: 00:31:42

Julie: Yeah.

548

: 00:31:43

I do.

549

: 00:31:44

I have two friends who, they have

two kids, one with special needs.

550

: 00:31:47

And so when they looked at their

careers and the trajectory of their

551

: 00:31:51

careers, he said, I'm going to stay

home and, take care of the kids.

552

: 00:31:54

And she is the breadwinner.

553

: 00:31:56

And I think that's such a, that's so

refreshing to see instead of making

554

: 00:32:01

it like the usual familial roles.

555

: 00:32:06

Jim: I think that's a real tough guy move.

556

: 00:32:08

Julie: yeah,

557

: 00:32:09

Jim: Cause like, I'm willing to

say, yeah, I love my kids so much.

558

: 00:32:11

I'm going to stay home with them.

559

: 00:32:12

And my wife is in a better position to be

the provider in our family financially.

560

: 00:32:17

I'm providing in a different way

and I don't care what you say.

561

: 00:32:20

Julie: Exactly.

562

: 00:32:21

Jim: So I love my family more.

563

: 00:32:23

Julie: Great way to end it, Jim.

564

: 00:32:25

I love that.

565

: 00:32:26

I love that.

566

: 00:32:26

Okay.

567

: 00:32:27

So, if people want to connect

with you, they can go to the

568

: 00:32:31

Centered, thecenteredcoach.

569

: 00:32:33

com, correct?

570

: 00:32:35

Jim: That's right.

571

: 00:32:35

That's the best place to find

572

: 00:32:36

Julie: Okay.

573

: 00:32:36

And you were also on LinkedIn, which

I would say everybody should go on

574

: 00:32:40

LinkedIn because you post a lot of great

information on LinkedIn, um, as well.

575

: 00:32:45

Jim: Yeah.

576

: 00:32:45

And if you search the centered coach

on LinkedIn, it'll be easier to

577

: 00:32:48

find me than to look for Jim young.

578

: 00:32:49

Cause there's a lot of us.

579

: 00:32:51

Julie: It's like the name Julie Brown,

but there's only one big one on,

580

: 00:32:54

Jim: That's only one.

581

: 00:32:56

We know that.

582

: 00:32:58

Julie: um, this was so great.

583

: 00:33:00

Thank you so much for coming on.

584

: 00:33:01

Jim: Yeah.

585

: 00:33:02

Thanks so much for having me, Julie.

586

: 00:33:09

It can be easy to think

that men have it easy.

587

: 00:33:13

And in a lot of ways.

588

: 00:33:14

Yes, they do have it easier than women,

but just because the societal expectations

589

: 00:33:20

on and constructs for them are different.

590

: 00:33:24

It doesn't mean that they have

it easier in every single way.

591

: 00:33:29

I'd like to encourage anyone listening,

especially men and maybe even myself.

592

: 00:33:34

To recognize that showing vulnerability

and seeking help is a sign of

593

: 00:33:38

strength, not a sign of weakness.

594

: 00:33:42

It may take time.

595

: 00:33:43

And effort.

596

: 00:33:44

And practice.

597

: 00:33:45

And maybe even a coach like Jim to help.

598

: 00:33:48

But wouldn't it be freeing to break

free from the constraints of traditional

599

: 00:33:52

masculinity and start embracing our

emotions without the fear of judgment.

600

: 00:33:57

Or maybe it's not even

the fear of judgment.

601

: 00:33:59

It's the ability to not give a

fuck if someone judges you for it,

602

: 00:34:03

because you know, it's better for

you and your overall health and

603

: 00:34:06

well being than the alternative.

604

: 00:34:10

I like how Jim gave us the

permission to start small.

605

: 00:34:14

Start small by saying.

606

: 00:34:16

Simply to someone I'm struggling

today, or today is hard.

607

: 00:34:22

Or this thing I'm dealing with is a lot.

608

: 00:34:26

Even if it's in slow.

609

: 00:34:29

Drips to start getting that shit.

610

: 00:34:31

Out of your mind.

611

: 00:34:33

And out of your body.

612

: 00:34:35

Like that billboard said start getting

that shit off your big, hairy chest.

613

: 00:34:41

Okay.

614

: 00:34:42

Now onto the drink of the

week, which for fuck sake.

615

: 00:34:45

I don't know why, but I didn't expect to

find so many websites dedicated to lists.

616

: 00:34:52

Like this quote.

617

: 00:34:54

Manly cocktails to order at the

bar, how to look manly at the bar.

618

: 00:34:58

What is the most manliest cocktail?

619

: 00:35:00

I mean, it's fucking ridiculous.

620

: 00:35:02

I actually found an article.

621

: 00:35:03

Uh, describing what manly car

cocktails are and are not, here's what

622

: 00:35:08

it said in case you're interested.

623

: 00:35:11

This is direct quote.

624

: 00:35:12

What makes a cocktail

manly and manly cocktail?

625

: 00:35:15

Shouldn't be overly sweet.

626

: 00:35:17

And mainly cocktail never employs a straw.

627

: 00:35:20

A manly drink is never blue, green,

pink, or purple, but most of all,

628

: 00:35:27

Uh, manly cocktail hits the palate

sharply with either potent alcohol,

629

: 00:35:32

strong sourness, powerful bitterness,

or a combination of the three.

630

: 00:35:37

It challenges the taste

buds and burns the throat.

631

: 00:35:41

That's why they are rarely

loved by first time drinkers.

632

: 00:35:46

Well for fuck's sake, give me a break.

633

: 00:35:51

This particular article listed the

seven manliest cocktails as, and

634

: 00:35:56

these are ones I drank like a lot,

like this is ridiculous, I guess.

635

: 00:36:00

I guess I'm fucking manly.

636

: 00:36:02

Here we go.

637

: 00:36:03

Dirty martini old-fashioned classic

Manhattan, rusty nail sidecar,

638

: 00:36:09

straight absent, and a drink called the

godfather, which I had never had before.

639

: 00:36:14

Well, I'm not going to

do any of those drinks.

640

: 00:36:16

I've already highlighted a few of

those, but I'm not going to do any

641

: 00:36:19

one of those because like it's,

this article was fucking ridiculous.

642

: 00:36:23

I was however, intrigued by a cocktail

that I found in none other than garden.

643

: 00:36:30

And gun magazine.

644

: 00:36:32

I know I had never heard of it either.

645

: 00:36:35

But the cocktail is called the third man.

646

: 00:36:39

Cocktail.

647

: 00:36:39

The third man was

inspired by the: 1940

648

: 00:36:43

New R film of the same name written

by Graham green and starting

649

: 00:36:47

Joseph Cotton and Orson Wells.

650

: 00:36:49

I just kind of liked that the

magazine was called garden and gun.

651

: 00:36:53

Like, would think that those are two

male and feminine constructs and like

652

: 00:36:57

that's the name of the magazine was so

that's what drew me to this cocktail.

653

: 00:37:01

All right.

654

: 00:37:01

Anyways, third man cocktail.

655

: 00:37:02

Here's what you're gonna need.

656

: 00:37:04

They call for Bellmead bourbon.

657

: 00:37:06

I've never had Bellmead bourbon.

658

: 00:37:07

I don't know how it tastes.

659

: 00:37:09

So I'm going to say just

an ounce and a half.

660

: 00:37:11

Of bourbon.

661

: 00:37:12

One ounce of grapefruit three fourths,

ounce of lemon juice three forests, ounce

662

: 00:37:16

of campari and a half ounce of simple

syrup shake all ingredients with ice

663

: 00:37:20

until chilled strain over fresh ice in

a rocks glass and then garnished With

664

: 00:37:24

a grapefruit twist All right friends.

665

: 00:37:27

That's all for this week if you like

what you I Heard today please leave

666

: 00:37:30

a review and subscribe to the podcast

also So please remember to share the

667

: 00:37:33

podcast to help reach a larger audience

if you want more julie brown you find

668

: 00:37:37

my book this shit works on amazon and

barnes and noble you can find me on

669

: 00:37:40

linkedin at julie brown bd just let me

know where you found me when you reach

670

: 00:37:43

out i'm julie brown underscore bd on the

instagram or as always just pop on over

671

: 00:37:48

to my website julie brown bd.com for lots

more information until next week cheers

672

: 00:37:57

Hey, thanks for taking the time to listen.

673

: 00:37:59

Be sure to subscribe to the

podcast so you never miss a tip.

674

: 00:38:03

And remember, you can unapologetically

be who you authentically are

675

: 00:38:07

and still be wildly successful.

676

: 00:38:10

That's a fact.

677

: 00:38:12

See you next week on This Shit Works.